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Post by Cepha on May 21, 2009 12:13:59 GMT -5
That's ok! You could still be saved! lol! I am. I know silly! I'm just playing with you!  |
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Post by watchman on May 21, 2009 12:17:38 GMT -5
If God has not chosen you, then you can hear The Gospel a hundred times and still not be saved. You won't believe it. It is God Who reveals His words. So now you are a Calvinist?  ?  |
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Post by teresahrc on May 21, 2009 12:26:40 GMT -5
LOL
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Post by Cepha on May 21, 2009 13:44:00 GMT -5
If God has not chosen you, then you can hear The Gospel a hundred times and still not be saved. You won't believe it. It is God Who reveals His words. So now you are a Calvinist? ? If being a Calvinist means this, then yeah: John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
and I will raise him up on the last day." |
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Post by Cepha on May 21, 2009 13:44:52 GMT -5
Now, does anybody want to define how Paul used the word "sanctified" in 1 Cor 7:14? Don't tell me now that everybody is going to avoid that question. Teresa said "it could mean", I believe, but is that what you believe it meant in here (set apart) when Paul literally compares it to being made "holy" (which is also a definition for it)? Anybody? |
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Post by teresahrc on May 21, 2009 14:35:28 GMT -5
Now, does anybody want to define how Paul used the word "sanctified" in 1 Cor 7:14? Don't tell me now that everybody is going to avoid that question. Teresa said "it could mean", I believe, but is that what you believe it meant in here (set apart) when Paul literally compares it to being made "holy" (which is also a definition for it)? Anybody? Here is something from my husbands Orthodox Study Bible (Greeks are really good with understanding the meaning of Greek words by the way) Commentary on 1 Cor. 7:14 "In Judaism the family was joined to the covenant through the father. But in the Church, the family is holy if either spouse is a believer (see also 2Ti 1:5) This does not mean that all are saved, but all are affected by the faith of a Christian spouse. The family is a spiritual unit; if one member is a Christian, the whole family is set apart by God's grace." Besides that, why would St. Paul say just a few verses later, "For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?" (1 Cor. 7:16) OBVIOUSLY, the unbelieving spouse's salvation depends on their own decision to accept Christ. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 21, 2009 14:40:41 GMT -5
Calvanism is a joke if that's what it believes.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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Post by watchman on May 21, 2009 15:22:35 GMT -5
Calvanism is a joke if that's what it believes. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Yes calvinism is a joke. |
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Post by teresahrc on May 21, 2009 23:01:34 GMT -5
I wouldn't call it "a joke". Remember that most of Calvinism is the same as the rest of Christianity. It is also focused on Jesus Christ. Maybe the whole think with the TULIP and the OSAS is a misunderstanding, but not really a joke. I have known some really godly Calvinists and though I disagree with its distinctives, I do see how they "got it" out of scripture.
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Post by watchman on May 21, 2009 23:57:50 GMT -5
I wouldn't call it "a joke". Remember that most of Calvinism is the same as the rest of Christianity. It is also focused on Jesus Christ. Maybe the whole think with the TULIP and the OSAS is a misunderstanding, but not really a joke. I have known some really godly Calvinists and though I disagree with its distinctives, I do see how they "got it" out of scripture. The TULIP teaching is Calvinism, and if you understood it properly, you would see that it is not like the rest of Christianity at all, but you are right it is no joke. It is a very dangerous aberration of the gospel. I have to go to bed now, but I will expand in the morning. |
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Post by teresahrc on May 22, 2009 0:29:58 GMT -5
Yeah, cutting and pasting scriptures and interpreting it apart from the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church usually is dangerous.
I'm pretty sure I understand Calvinism. I lived in Holland, Michigan for 6 winters.
So, I think it's interesting that you are going to evaluate their doctrine tomorrow. I'd like to see this, because it may give us more insight into what you believe.
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Post by watchman on May 22, 2009 2:30:53 GMT -5
Yeah, cutting and pasting scriptures and interpreting it apart from the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church usually is dangerous. I'm pretty sure I understand Calvinism. I lived in Holland, Michigan for 6 winters. So, I think it's interesting that you are going to evaluate their doctrine tomorrow. I'd like to see this, because it may give us more insight into what you believe. I believe the exact opposite from every thing a calvinist believes. Matter of fact I do not know how they get away with being called Christian. The god they believe in is not the God if the Bible , far from it. The god they teach is a sinister evil being. |
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Post by watchman on May 22, 2009 2:38:07 GMT -5
First lets go down the list of what TULIP means.
T= Total depravity, this teaching claims man is so depraved he would never choose God on his own so that his must be reborn or regenerated first, just to be capable of receiving grace.
U= Unconditional election. Which means God decided who He would saved and who He would not before the creation of the earth. Those He has chosen will go to Heaven and have no choice, those He has not chosen will go to Hell and have no chance.
L= Limited atonement, This teaching claims Jesus only died for those elected for Heaven, His death was not for the non elect.
I= Irresistible grace, This teaching claims that The elect cannot resist God Grace, if the could they would because man hate God and doesn't want to accept Him, so God must ''regenerate'' man first and in doing so making His Grace irresistible to them.
P= Perseverance of the saint, which in short is equal to eternal security or OSAS
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Post by watchman on May 22, 2009 2:48:18 GMT -5
So what they teach is that man is so falling that God must force Himself on them against their will to saved them at all. Further more He has decided to saved some while sending the rest of us to Hell, without even the opportunity for salvation, and that the blood of Jesus only covers those that God had previously chosen to save. The god of the calvinist is unjust at best and a murderer himself at worst.
Imagine this. Two men stand before a judge both equally guilty of the same horrible crime, both throw themselves on the mercy of the court. The judge pardons one, and condemns the other to death. This is the same unjust act of the calvinistic god.
Calvinist make God out to be a liar, a rapist, and a murderer. A liar because scripture clearly states God is no respecter of persons and will accept all who come to Him, yet they say this is untrue. A rapist because He forces Himself on the elect against their will, whom would resist Him if they could. And a murderer because most of Humanity was created for the sole purpose of living, dying, and then burning in Hell, and God gave them no way out. This is not the God of the Bible, and it is not the Christian God, and Calvinism is not a Christian sect.
Calvinism is the most satanic, devilish doctrine to ever infiltrate the church.
Rant over....lol
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Post by Cepha on May 22, 2009 8:33:57 GMT -5
Here is something from my husbands Orthodox Study Bible (Greeks are really good with understanding the meaning of Greek words by the way) Commentary on 1 Cor. 7:14 "In Judaism the family was joined to the covenant through the father. But in the Church, the family is holy if either spouse is a believer (see also 2Ti 1:5) This does not mean that all are saved, but all are affected by the faith of a Christian spouse. The family is a spiritual unit; if one member is a Christian, the whole family is set apart by God's grace." Besides that, why would St. Paul say just a few verses later, "For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?" (1 Cor. 7:16) OBVIOUSLY, the unbelieving spouse's salvation depends on their own decision to accept Christ. There is a contradiction there that cannot be reconciled with scripture. Would God deny a holy person their place in Heaven? Can a person be holy and still be excluded from Heaven? If Paul called the unbelieving spouse "holy", then one has to accept that they are "holy". The Bible doesn't say..."sanctified conditionally", but just sanctified (at least in 1 Cor). The conditions for salvation are set for everybody the same (not just for the unbelievind spouse). Romans 2 tells us that those who don't have The Law (believers) are justified to God (saved) by their living His Word in their hearts and how they live. That clearly means that unbelievers can be saved if they live righteous lives. Jesus Himself used non-believers to teach believers what behavior pleased God. Would God deny someone who lived a life that pleased Him Heaven just because they didn't follow what we believe to be His formula for salvation? Here's the thing...anybody who thinks they "know" what God want's is wrong. Only God knows that. We cannot assume that how we personally interpret The Bible is what God means. We cannot even accept that The Holy Spirit is guiding us because ultimately, those are decisions of faith (thanks to free will) that we individually make. The Church we can accept is perfect because we know she's guided by The Holy Spirit. For it to be wrong, all Christianity would have to be wrong. But the Bible is clear...unbelievers who live righteous lives can be saved if they please God. I've known Atheist that I believe in my heart will gladly be accepeted by God because even though they didn't see Christ as we do, they believed He existed and that He was a holy man (holy in terms of religion) and they accept his teachings as good and as true. I haven't met an Atheist that doesn't believe in a greater power though. So, by default, they (we) all believe in God (even if we use different names). |
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Post by Cepha on May 22, 2009 9:03:27 GMT -5
I wouldn't call it "a joke". Remember that most of Calvinism is the same as the rest of Christianity. It is also focused on Jesus Christ. Maybe the whole think with the TULIP and the OSAS is a misunderstanding, but not really a joke. I have known some really godly Calvinists and though I disagree with its distinctives, I do see how they "got it" out of scripture. I agree. I wouldn't seriously insult any Christian faith. I used to, but not anymore. I feel like such a bum when I think back of how dumb I was and how I used to insult people's faiths. I even did it to Catholicism when I was an Anti-Catholic. God, please forgive me. |
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Post by Cepha on May 22, 2009 9:19:45 GMT -5
So what they teach is that man is so falling that God must force Himself on them against their will to saved them at all. Further more He has decided to saved some while sending the rest of us to Hell, without even the opportunity for salvation, and that the blood of Jesus only covers those that God had previously chosen to save. The god of the calvinist is unjust at best and a murderer himself at worst. Imagine this. Two men stand before a judge both equally guilty of the same horrible crime, both throw themselves on the mercy of the court. The judge pardons one, and condemns the other to death. This is the same unjust act of the calvinistic god. Calvinist make God out to be a liar, a rapist, and a murderer. A liar because scripture clearly states God is no respecter of persons and will accept all who come to Him, yet they say this is untrue. A rapist because He forces Himself on the elect against their will, whom would resist Him if they could. And a murderer because most of Humanity was created for the sole purpose of living, dying, and then burning in Hell, and God gave them no way out. This is not the God of the Bible, and it is not the Christian God, and Calvinism is not a Christian sect. Calvinism is the most satanic, devilish doctrine to ever infiltrate the church. Rant over....lol Think about it...problem number one: It's named after a man. Same goes for Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, all of them. Named after events, movements, people...nothing "universal" about them. Totally contrary to what Paul taught in Corinthians. As for the rest of it, everybody's got some wierdness in them when viewed from the outside (I know we do for sure and can understand how someone would look at Catholic Ritual and misinterpret it without it being explained to them). |
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Post by teresahrc on May 22, 2009 14:59:37 GMT -5
The opposite of EVERYTHING they believe? Yikes.
How can that be? They do believe that the Bible is the word of God, and that Jesus is the Son of God. What is the opposite of those things?
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Post by watchman on May 22, 2009 15:36:07 GMT -5
The opposite of EVERYTHING they believe? Yikes. How can that be? They do believe that the Bible is the word of God, and that Jesus is the Son of God. What is the opposite of those things? I believe the opposite of everything that makes a Calvinist a Calvinist. Such as total depravity, predestination/ unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and OSAS/eternal security/perseverance of the saints. The opposite of those would be, that although man is deprave he does have the ability to chose God, that the election is based on God's foreknowledge, that Christ died for all men, that God's grace can be resisted, and that we must endure until the end to receive eternal life and or final redemption. P.S. Did you not see the 2 post below the one you responded to that explains the teaching of the Calvinist? |
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Post by teresahrc on May 22, 2009 16:33:05 GMT -5
Well, you know what? They have good reasons for what they believe. I'm shocked that you have the nerve to call it "satanic" and "devilish".
At least they believe in God's complete sovereignty, unlike some groups who seem to believe that they can get God to do whatever they want Him to do.
Does your Bible have Romans 9?
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
(Romans 9)
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