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Post by alfie on May 24, 2009 16:15:51 GMT -5
St. Clement of Alexandria (2nd Century, Greek Father of the Church) : "Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman...the consciousness of their own nature must evoke feelings of shame"
Tertullian (2nd Century, African Father of the Church) : Women are "the devil's gateway."
St. Jerome (4th and 5th Centuries, well known scholar) : "Woman is the root of all evil.
St. John Chrysostom (4th and 5th Centuries, Bishop of Constantinople) : "It does not profit a man to marry. For what is a woman but an enemy of friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a domestic danger, delectable mischief, a fault in nature, painted with beautiful colors?...The whole of her body is nothing less than phlegm, blood, bile, rheum and the fluid of digested food ... If you consider what is stored up behind those lovely eyes, the angle of the nose, the mouth and the cheeks you will agree that the well-proportioned body is only a whitened sepulchre."
St. Augustine (5th Century, Doctor of the Church and Bishop of Hippo) : "I don't see what sort of help woman was created to provide man with, if one excludes procreation. If woman is not given to man for help in bearing children, for what help could she be? To till the earth together? If help were needed for that, man would have been a better help for man. The same goes for comfort in solitude. How much more pleasure is it for life and conversation when two friends live together than when a man and a woman cohabitate?"
Boethius (6th Century Christian Philosopher) : "Woman is a temple built upon a sewer."
St. Thomas Aquinas (13th Century) : "Good order would have been wanting in the human family if some were not governed by others wiser than themselves. So by such a kind of subjection woman is naturally subject to man, because in men the discretion of reason predominates."
St. Albertus Magnus (13th Century, Doctor of the Church) : "Woman is less qualified [than man] for moral behavior. For the woman contains more liquid than man, and it is a property of liquid to take things up easily and to hold unto them poorly. Liquids are easily moved, hence women are inconstant and curious. When a woman has relations with a man, she would like, as much as possible, to be lying with another man at the same time. Woman knows nothing about fidelity. Believe me, if you give her your trust, you will be disappointed. Trust an experience teacher. For this reason prudent men share their plans and actions least of all with their wives. Woman is a misbegotten man and has a faulty and defective nature in comparison to his. Therefore she is unsure in herself. What she cannot get, she seeks to obtain through lying and diabolical deceptions. And so, to put it briefly, one must be on one's guard with every woman, as if she were a poisonous snake and the horned devil. If I could say what I know about women, the world would be astonished ... Woman is strictly speaking not cleverer but slyer (more cunning) than man. Cleverness sounds like something good, slyness sounds like something evil. Thus in evil and perverse doings woman is cleverer, that is, slyer, than man. Her feelings drive woman toward every evil, just as reason impels man toward all good."
Inquisitors (also wrote Malleus Maleficarum) : "They [women] are only 'imperfect animals' and 'crooked' whereas man belongs to a privileged sex from whose midst Christ emerged."
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Post by emily445455 on May 24, 2009 21:32:34 GMT -5
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by alfie on May 25, 2009 8:01:32 GMT -5
I didn't realize that the reason Mary holds such a high place in the Catholic Church is because of sexism. Here is a quote from an article I read. "Another far less gruesome but equally un-biblical by-product of the church’s spiteful sexism was the Vatican’s 1854 A.D. declaration on the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary. It was impossible for the Roman church to fathom God having debased himself by birthing his son through a woman, the very source of all sin. They concluded that Mary had to have been a super-woman, born without the taint of her sisters. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 25, 2009 8:37:12 GMT -5
Why are women viewed as the "source of all sin"? I find that odd. I know we're sinfully beautiful...but...hehe
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Post by teresahrc on May 25, 2009 14:31:29 GMT -5
I didn't realize that the reason Mary holds such a high place in the Catholic Church is because of sexism. Here is a quote from an article I read. "Another far less gruesome but equally un-biblical by-product of the church’s spiteful sexism was the Vatican’s 1854 A.D. declaration on the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary. It was impossible for the Roman church to fathom God having debased himself by birthing his son through a woman, the very source of all sin. They concluded that Mary had to have been a super-woman, born without the taint of her sisters. Alfie, usually we give a reference to our quotes from other sources. You are terribly confused. I'm slightly confused too, because I thought you were a woman. I'm sorry to break the news, but if you think it is just the church fathers that had a "negative" view of woman, you are incorrect. 11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. Mary has always been held in honor in the Church. That is until the 1500's when followers of the reformers thought they should do away with any concept that wasn't explicitly in the Bible. Actually, Luther and other reformers also honored Mary and believed in her sinlessness. It is in fact anti-Biblical to not honor Mary. In the (inspired) gospel of St. Luke, Mary prophesies that "all generations shall call me blessed". The Catholic Church has always called her blessed, and continues to do so in accordance with God's word. To say that Catholics honoring Mary is sexist is utterly absurd. We honor the fact that God brought our redemption through a woman. By ignoring Mary, or worse dishonoring her, Protestants also dishonor women. Yes, woman sinned first in the Garden of Eden, when she refused to obey God, and those who are condemned are her daughters. But for those who believe, we are daughters of the woman who said "Yes" to God. Mary, who said "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word" is our Mother, not Eve. |
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Post by alfie on May 25, 2009 16:29:20 GMT -5
[/quote] Alfie, usually we give a reference to our quotes from other sources. You are terribly confused. I'm slightly confused too, because I thought you were a woman. I'm sorry to break the news, but if you think it is just the church fathers that had a "negative" view of woman, you are incorrect. ]11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.I hardly think you can compare this statement to a woman being a sewer or the gateway to hell. There is a big difference in these statementsMary has always been held in honor in the Church. That is until the 1500's when followers of the reformers thought they should do away with any concept that wasn't explicitly in the Bible. Actually, Luther and other reformers also honored Mary and believed in her sinlessness. No one ever said that Mary hasn't been honored by the Catholic Church. However, as I have shown, in general the ECFS did not hold women in high esteem. I can post more anti-woman quotes by the ECFS if you like. I believe it was St. Augustine who doubted if women even had souls.Luther was a product of the Catholic Church. As you have pointed out in another post he was rather anti-Jewish which is also evident in the writings of the ECFS. So Luther was bound to have been negatively influenced in some of his beliefs because he was taught by the Catholic church.It is in fact anti-Biblical to not honor Mary. In the (inspired) gospel of St. Luke, Mary prophesies that "all generations shall call me blessed". The Catholic Church has always called her blessed, and continues to do so in accordance with God's word. I'm not saying that Mary should not be honored but the point of my post is that Mary was placed on a higher level then the average woman because the average woman had a low status (sometimes said to be made in the image of the devil rather than God) in the church. So the ECFS had to create a godlike image of Mary in order to accept that a woman could be honored and used by God.To say that Catholics honoring Mary is sexist is utterly absurd. We honor the fact that God brought our redemption through a woman. By ignoring Mary, or worse dishonoring her, Protestants also dishonor women. It's the Catholic Church that has been sexist towards women. Why do all of your paintings and statues of Mary portray her as beautiful? Does the church know what she looked like? How do they know she was beautiful? If they knew she was ugly would they portray her as ugly or falsly portray her as being beautiful so that people could readily accept her as a goddess? Yes, woman sinned first in the Garden of Eden, when she refused to obey God, and those who are condemned are her daughters. But for those who believe, we are daughters of the woman who said "Yes" to God. Mary, who said "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word" is our Mother, not Eve.[/quote] So by writing this you are saying that women in the Catholic Church deserved to be treated badly. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 25, 2009 17:00:57 GMT -5
Hm...my mom's name is Debbie.
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Post by teresahrc on May 25, 2009 22:42:02 GMT -5
Seriously? What? The beginning of your post was well reasoned, but as an artist, I have to say you lost me on the --why do you portray Mary as beautiful-- part.
I don't think any woman deserves to be treated badly. Were some of the Church fathers sexist? Probably.
Is the Bible sexist?
To be honest, I think that some of them got their views from the Bible, such as the verse I posted.
I have never felt the victim of sexism in the Catholic Church. I feel a victim of it from the world nearly every day.
Also, why did you think it is possible that "Mary is ugly"? I'm sure she is not ugly, just as I am sure that you are not ugly even though I have never seen you. Are we not created in the image of God?
peace
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Post by Cepha on May 26, 2009 9:40:01 GMT -5
Amazing, women in The Catholic Church are so much more honored than in other churches.
We have more women saints than male saints.
Sexism?
Sexism is when women are honored and others complain about it.
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Post by alfie on May 26, 2009 9:44:36 GMT -5
Seriously? What? The beginning of your post was well reasoned, but as an artist, I have to say you lost me on the --why do you portray Mary as beautiful-- part. I don't think any woman deserves to be treated badly. Were some of the Church fathers sexist? Probably. Is the Bible sexist? To be honest, I think that some of them got their views from the Bible, such as the verse I posted. I have never felt the victim of sexism in the Catholic Church. I feel a victim of it from the world nearly every day. Also, why did you think it is possible that "Mary is ugly"? I'm sure she is not ugly, just as I am sure that you are not ugly even though I have never seen you. Are we not created in the image of God? peace Why should I trust the teachings of the ECFS when they have opinions about women that came from Satan rather than the Holy Spirit? And if they have opinions like this then how can I trust their other teachings? As I said earlier I can post more sexist/satanic quotes by the ECFS. Make no bones about it their quotes are from the pit of hell. I'm just saying that if Mary was portrayed in Catholic art as being ugly or even plain rather than beautiful I doubt if she would receive as much devotion from Catholics. |
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Post by Cepha on May 26, 2009 13:26:09 GMT -5
Why should I trust the teachings of the ECFS when they have opinions about women that came from Satan rather than the Holy Spirit? Why? Because The Church (which is led by The Holy Spirit) tells us which of their teachings are divinly inspired and which are not. That way, you are protected and don't have to rely on "personal interpretation" for your guidance. Especially since it was woman who was deceived by The Serpent and then she went on to deceive man. Matter of fact, let's see what The Holy Bible says about this: 1 Timothy 2: 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Do you deny that Scriptural Teaching? Again, it's not what they teach, but what The Church approves of what they teach. That way, you are protected from any one man guiding you. The Church is guided by The Holy Spirit. So, she cannot (and has never) taught falsely. Then, according to you, Jesus' Church failed....the gates of hell "have" prevailed against His Church. (It's a good thing you're wrong! ;D ) What makes you think that it's her looks that we honor? The Bible says she is our mother (Rev 12:17). We are supposed to honor our mother. Why do you disagree with scripture? And...have you ever heard of "icons"? These are portraits of Mary (and other Saints) that are purposely portrayed without attractiveness. You have so much to learn about Christian Art. There's a great Documentary on PBS (check out their website) called "Jesus: The Face in Art"  |
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Post by teresahrc on May 26, 2009 13:34:07 GMT -5
No one really knows what Mary looks like. Most of the painting of her are all completely different from each other. To be honest, I have seen quite a few that were "unattractive" by the standards of this world.
What do you think? That artists should say "hey, let's make a bunch of ugly paintings of the Saints!"
No, they paint for the glory of God.
But, you must know that the most beautiful face of all is one that was "disfigured beyond the appearance of any man" (Isaiah 53) . Yet even so, we honor, adore and reverence the Face of Jesus more than any other.
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Post by Hello on Jul 14, 2013 1:53:28 GMT -5
Any woman here:
"I permit no woman to teach or have authority over man, she must be silent."
-Timothy 2:12
So any Christian women here, if you actually follow the horseshit you preach that was written by half literate people learned from oral retellings hundreds of years old, from people who lived forty to ninety years after the supposed events occurred . . . then you've got to believe the parts that deny you equality. So do not waste your time teaching.
Lesson to learn: The Bible and the myths that spawned it and the religions that spawned from it should never be a moral authority.
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Post by Cepha on Jul 19, 2013 15:58:17 GMT -5
Any woman here: "I permit no woman to teach or have authority over man, she must be silent." -Timothy 2:12 So any Christian women here, if you actually follow the horseshit you preach that was written by half literate people learned from oral retellings hundreds of years old, from people who lived forty to ninety years after the supposed events occurred . . . then you've got to believe the parts that deny you equality. So do not waste your time teaching. Lesson to learn: The Bible and the myths that spawned it and the religions that spawned from it should never be a moral authority. Hi! My wife (who I met here on FideiDefensor) would be the one who'd have an opinion on this. I'll let her know you posted her. |
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Post by Susan Cowles on Aug 14, 2014 17:12:14 GMT -5
Genesis contains two versions of the Adam and Eve story:
In the first chapter is the story of Eve's temptation by the serpent and her eating the apple and being merely a second being taken from a rib of Adam.
In the second chapter, it simply states that God made man and women, with no reference to Eve being the sinful partner.
It is thus the Christian churches which chose the first version, no doubt because, like virtually all religions, women are blamed for the loss of innocence and sins of the male (remember Pandora, etc.) As men are physically stronger, they have always wanted to be able to blame someone else for their sinfulness and thus look better and purer than they are.
Personally, I think such Bible stories are absolute nonsense and the degree of suffering of women throughout the centuries caused by ones such as this is unforgivable.
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Post by Esmeralda on Sept 8, 2015 15:59:36 GMT -5
"Why do women complain since the Catholic Church honors and worships the Virgin Mary more than anyone or anything else? Why do they still claim that Roman Catholic church or any other church is sexist since we have got many female saints and in Catholicism maybe more than the male ones!"
Okay...
First and foremost, I would like to make it clear that when we talk about sexism coming from church, we mean from all (Christian)churches!
Now let's get to the countdown:
1. Honoring Mary The Mother Of God, does not mean anything if in real life you just treat or think of women as inferiors to men!
2. Honoring the Virgin Mary, Jesus Christ and God was also the basic moto of the church in Middle Ages and we all know how that turned out...
3. Sexism derives from the church (every kind of church - especially the Romeo-Catholic and Orthodox ones) who have always propaganded that women are the tools of Devil and are easier to be tempted and eventually to sin...
4. "Eve was the first to indulge in the temptation and so she also lured "poor",Adam with her..." Well, out of all things said, this is one of the most frustrating ones, I mean: it's not like she did drag Adam from his ear and said "EAT OR DIE"! If he really ate that damn apple, it's because he CHOSE to! Otherwise, if you truly want to blame it on someone blame it on the cursed serpent, because in case you all forget Eve was tempted by someone else too...
5. People of church have ALWAYS been misogynists (with some rare and notable exceptions,of course)and this is one of the main reasons why the 80/90 % of humans condemned and executed for witchcraft, or generally found guilty about almost everything-, were women!
6. The Roman-Catholic Church even released a book during the period of Inquisition, entitled: "Malle Maleficarum", teaching to the monks how to trace, hunt down, capture, torture, and even find and prove women guilty as witches- even if they were not! Can you even conceive what men have done to women all these years?
(men had also suffered in the hands of Inquisition, no one says any different!)
7. We have a sexist society until today, partially because all these men who made it quite clear that they basically hate the female nature, today are literally worshipped as Saints! And yes, I know some people will say: "they also said many other substantial things of vital importance for the creation of the Western Church and theology today etc.". Well, bad news for you: just because someone- no matter who they are-have said a couple of interesting or right things, it doesn't mean they must be worshipped as Saints or that all their ideas must immediately be adopted! Simple example, ASIDE from all the VILE and UNACCEPTABLE things he stated about women, St. Augustine also wrote:
“I was already Bishop of Hippo, when I went into Ethiopia with some servants of Christ there to preach the Gospel. In this country we saw many men and women without heads, who had two great eyes in their breasts; and in countries still more southly, we saw people who had but one eye in their foreheads.” (Sermones, xxxiii.)...and wait, there is more: “Frogs are produced from the earth, not propagated by male and female parents” (City of God, Chapter xvi). This "theological genius" also stated: “There are in Cappadocia mares which are impregnated by the wind, and their foals live only three years” (City of God, Chapter xxi.).
Jesus Christ!
And yes, ladies and gentlemen, this man - and others like him or worse- is today considered to be a Saint and one of the most important personalities of the Western Theology...!
8. In the teachings of the Orthodox Church - especially- we find that "woman is the source of all sins". I mean, all these crimes today, all these wars, all these rapes, all these horrible, awful crimes commited by men, are they not enough to categorize them as equally sinful to women?
9. In many monasteries and churches women are NOT permitted entrance. Why is that? For two famous / all time-classic reasons: a) because they will scandalize and temptate the monks/priests/deacons etc., b) because they are not "pure" and "clean" as opposed to men (because of the period)... Yes, like women happily chose to have periods or most importantly, like all it takes to decide if someone's soul, heart and body is clean, is period. Not to even mention about the fact that as for the a) reason, they seem to forget that there are also monasteries with nuns! However, the entrance to these monasteries is equally allowed to women as it is allowed to men (with very little exceptions). No comments...
10. The same reason mentioned above, in number 9, the alleged "unpirity" or "unclean" nature of women, is perhaps the same "superficial" reason why men have never allowed women to take higher positions or titles in Church, like bishops, deacons, priests even! Nothing!
Women are allowed to serve the God as nuns-despite this "hideous unclean female nature" - oh the horror!- but not as something more! Why not? Because church men are sexist as hell, and unfortunately so are those who blindly follow them! Deny it all you like but seriously it is historically and sociologically proved!
11. Returning back to the Middle Ages logic, most people today would be surprised to learn that one of the most accurate reasons why women were executed or accused as witches, was the sexual arousement of men, especially of the ones of the Church! Yes, you read it right! Historians as well as severous researchers have discovered monks' diaries and written practices and practicals confirming it.
Men thought, that once they got turned on, it was not because of their biological nature but because the "witch" was performing a spell upon them! As a result they felt free attacking women's breasts and genitals with several savage weapons, torturing them, and eventually burning/drowning/beheading them.
12. While many people falsely can claim that "ok you are right but all these belong to the past", unfortunately the Church keeps promoting the same ideas! The Inquisition might not be, but the scripts, the texts, the teaching of a woman's inferiority and vulnerable nature, are all still here!
13. The fact that women get raped and this is considered by a vast percentage of men to be 'okay' or 'more than just okay' or even 'necessary' in order to teach a woman her right place, is enough to prove that once more our society is a weary of medieval perceptions that also happen to derive (the majority of them) from the sexist teachings of the church!
14. All Holy Books, The Bible, the Scripture, the Gospels, everything was written by men. Keep that in mind.
A true man knows that he is only strong because his role is to protect the woman/en of his life, never hurt her/them, his beloved ones. He must be there to support his wife as much as his wife must be there to support him! Men and women are both humans and EQUALS!
Jesus Christ himself defended the place of women many times and some of his most great revelations were made to women FIRST!
Stop making excuses to be a sexist burden to society and learn to love people, regardless their gender or sex, as EQUALS!
To whoever reads it, thank you in advance!
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