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Post by teresahrc on Jun 1, 2009 0:14:27 GMT -5
Do you follow the tradition of man or God?
I'm very obviously spurring on the anti-catholic debates, but I'm bringing this up because the Eucharist is one of the top reasons that I became Catholic. When I read the scriptures, I just could not reconsile the words of Jesus and St. Paul with the ways in which I had previously understood the Lord's Supper.
It seems like these days every church has a different practice with the Lord's Supper.
Examine yourselves...
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 1, 2009 8:39:33 GMT -5
Um...ok. We have it about once every couple of months...little cups of grape juice and little weird wafter things in a little cup. The pastor asks that only Believers take it, that guests are welcome to take it but only if they are born-again. Then he asks us to take time to examine our lives and see where we have been falling short of serving God. Then he reads the passages "Christ's blood spilt for you" etc etc, and we drink/eat. Then we pray, asking God to cleanse us and make us better for Him, etc etc. Yup that's about it.  |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 1, 2009 10:22:37 GMT -5
As a Christian, I have to do what Jesus said to do. He said to do it in rememberance of Him. They did it weekly when they gathered. I follow the Biblical lead. Only The Catholic Church does that. I follow the traditions that were are instructed to "hold fast" to in scripture, therefore, I follow those Priests (those separated "from" men as stated by Jesus Christ) who are successors to the Biblical Priests. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 1, 2009 12:26:46 GMT -5
Emily, why are only believers allowed to take it?
Does your Church believe it is really the Lord's body and blood?
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 1, 2009 12:44:51 GMT -5
Because that's who the Bible says should consume it.
And, no, we don't. We believe it is a symbol to remember Christ and what He did.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 1, 2009 13:11:16 GMT -5
Well, if you are only eating crackers and drinking juice than I suppose it is just a symbol.
But then you aren't really partaking of the Lord's supper, because the Lord's Supper is not a symbol. I know that a lot of Protestant Churches believe that, but it is a completely man-made invention from the Protestant Reformation.
Pretend for a moment that you were putting aside anything your church was telling you about the Lord's Supper.
Look at the Bible Alone for a moment and reflect on the words. Do the scriptures describe the Lord's Supper as a "symbol"? What did Jesus say about it?
22While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."
23Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.
24"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. 25"I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God." (Mark 14)
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. (1 Cor. 11)
Does your church read verses 27-29 or does it stop at 26?
In 14 years of being a Protestant and going to many "communion" services, I never ONCE heard anyone read past verse 26. Why not? I think if you read it, the answer it obvious. They don't believe this verse it true. Why would they tell their congregation that they must recognize that the Eucharist is the Lord's body and blood or they eat and drink judgement on themselves if they teach that it is only a symbol?
The problem is that verse is hard to sweep under the rug or explain away. So they just don't read it.
Please, don't just take your pastor's word for it. Study for yourself. Use the Bible only! Or if you want, study what the entire Church believed for 1500 years. Compare verse to verse like you said you do. You won't find any mention or even a hint of the Eucharist being only a symbol.
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 1, 2009 14:49:18 GMT -5
Somewhere, it says that the Last Supper is spiritual.
Also, the Bible forbids the drinking of blood.
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 1, 2009 19:27:37 GMT -5
John 6:63 and verses around.
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Post by alfie on Jun 1, 2009 22:42:13 GMT -5
Somewhere, it says that the Last Supper is spiritual. Also, the Bible forbids the drinking of blood. Leviticus 17:10-14 (New International Version) 10 " 'Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood—I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, "None of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood." 13 " 'Any Israelite or any alien living among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, 14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, "You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off." |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 2, 2009 0:04:54 GMT -5
Somewhere, it says that the Last Supper is spiritual. Also, the Bible forbids the drinking of blood. Leviticus 17:10-14 (New International Version) 10 " 'Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood—I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, "None of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood." 13 " 'Any Israelite or any alien living among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, 14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, "You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off." Thank you Alfie!!!!! That is actually one of the BEST verses that supports the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Look at it, it's so prophetic and so beautiful. Don't you get it? I hope you all get it! 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. The life of a creature is in the blood! When we partake of Christ's blood, we take His life into us. He makes atonement for us on the altar. It is Christ's blood that makes atonement for our lives! How wretched would it be to take into you the life of a cow or a sheep or whatever. Of course God doesn't want anyone to do such a thing. But Christ is not a "creature" He is the only begotten Son of God. Not only that, we can be assured that He can neither deceive nor be deceived. Jesus would never command us to sin! But He says to us "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Was not the water at the wedding in Cana real water? And did not the Lord turn that real water into real wine? If I said that was only symbolic, you would say I am a naturalist, I am against miracles, I was taking the whole thing out of context or twisting the meaning. How much more absurd it is to say that Jesus turning bread into His body and wine into His blood is only a symbol! Dare anyone call Him a liar? Do you dare say to the Lord "you didn't mean that"?! Even as many disciples turned away from Him because of such a difficult saying, never did He say "Please, don't leave, you misunderstood me, I meant that it is all symbolic". That's why difficult sayings of Jesus are so difficult. You can't just go with your own understanding. You can't really on human logic and reasoning. You have to just trust and believe and obey. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 8:53:11 GMT -5
Well, if you are only eating crackers and drinking juice than I suppose it is just a symbol. But then you aren't really partaking of the Lord's supper, because the Lord's Supper is not a symbol. I know that a lot of Protestant Churches believe that, but it is a completely man-made invention from the Protestant Reformation. Pretend for a moment that you were putting aside anything your church was telling you about the Lord's Supper. Look at the Bible Alone for a moment and reflect on the words. Do the scriptures describe the Lord's Supper as a "symbol"? What did Jesus say about it? 22While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body." 23Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it. 24"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. 25"I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God." (Mark 14) 23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. (1 Cor. 11) Does your church read verses 27-29 or does it stop at 26? In 14 years of being a Protestant and going to many "communion" services, I never ONCE heard anyone read past verse 26. Why not? I think if you read it, the answer it obvious. They don't believe this verse it true. Why would they tell their congregation that they must recognize that the Eucharist is the Lord's body and blood or they eat and drink judgement on themselves if they teach that it is only a symbol? The problem is that verse is hard to sweep under the rug or explain away. So they just don't read it. Please, don't just take your pastor's word for it. Study for yourself. Use the Bible only! Or if you want, study what the entire Church believed for 1500 years. Compare verse to verse like you said you do. You won't find any mention or even a hint of the Eucharist being only a symbol. Paul rocks! |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 8:57:51 GMT -5
Somewhere, it says that the Last Supper is spiritual. Also, the Bible forbids the drinking of blood. Yet, Jesus said that unless we drink His blood, we will not be saved. So, when you are confronted with these two seemingly opposing scriptures, how do you decide? Simple. Just follow what Jesus said blindly and to the letter and you can't go wrong. You don't follow The Bible, you are not a "biblian", you are a Christian...you follow Christ. So, follow Christ's words exactly as they are written without personally interpreting them to bend them to meet other scriptures. All other scriptures have to bend to meet Jesus' words. If you follow nobody but Jesus Christ in The Bible and ignore all other words, you will find yourself seeing what Catholics see without an ounce of confusion. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 9:08:14 GMT -5
John 6:63 and verses around. John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. That says that the "words" that He spoke are spirit and they are life. But He never said that they are "just" spirit. Also, His words are eternal (meaning that they have their own life). That's what I believe He meant. But He didn't say that The Last Supper is either just spiritual or even symbollic. In fact, He said that you MUST eat His flesh and drink His blood. And to emphasize this, He literally said "truly, truly..." meaning that it is true. In other words, The Last Supper offers eternal life. If you read further down, you'll see that this is why Catholics are Catholics and Protestants are Protestans. We accept what Jesus said as literal. Protestants see what He said as symbollic. Peter (who coincidentally we also follow) says what I stated, that Jesus' words are the words of life. And you'll note that some walked away from the true Church in protest as soon as Jesus said that what He was saying was literal. Even when they questioned Him on it asking if what He was saying was literal, He reaffirmed that what He was saying was literally what He meant. Notice what verse these people abandoned Him at: John 6:66  John 6 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."/color]
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 9:09:16 GMT -5
Somewhere, it says that the Last Supper is spiritual. Also, the Bible forbids the drinking of blood. Leviticus 17:10-14 (New International Version) 10 " 'Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood—I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, "None of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood." 13 " 'Any Israelite or any alien living among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, 14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, "You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off." That's talking about animals. Doesn't include Jesus' Blood there. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 9:14:27 GMT -5
Leviticus 17:10-14 (New International Version) 10 " 'Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood—I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, "None of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood." 13 " 'Any Israelite or any alien living among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, 14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, "You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off." Thank you Alfie!!!!! That is actually one of the BEST verses that supports the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Look at it, it's so prophetic and so beautiful. Don't you get it? I hope you all get it! 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. The life of a creature is in the blood! When we partake of Christ's blood, we take His life into us. He makes atonement for us on the altar. It is Christ's blood that makes atonement for our lives! Amen to that Teresa! |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 2, 2009 9:22:05 GMT -5
That is so true! There were so many things Jesus said that I didn't understand or was terrified of so I basically ignored them until I became Catholic.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 9:36:21 GMT -5
That is so true! There were so many things Jesus said that I didn't understand or was terrified of so I basically ignored them until I became Catholic. Being Catholic is like being given a pair of magic glasses to read scripture with...all of a sudden, things that didn't make sense or that had to be explained away can now be taken symbollic. This isn't a dig at Em, but I've noticed that when non-Catholic Christians (NCC's) can't explain something, they resort to just calling it symbollic or spiritual. These are code words for not having the theology to understand the scripture. The question is, how/when does one decide that Jesus didn't really mean what He literally said? Gosh I love The Church! When it can't explain something, it calls it what it is. I doesn't try to supply an answer for everything, but calls it what it's supposed to be called: Mystery! To call something that Jesus literally said symbollic or spiritual is like taking away the meaning of the words. Again, not a dig at Em here, but it's what I've seen with all NCC's. It must be really hard to read The Bible for them. This is why they don't read the whole Bible. They will only focus on NCC-friendly verses. And the sermon is the same one every service, service after service. Which is cool with me. That's how they want to run their church, so be it. I have nothing to say "against" it. But Catholicism is like God...it's "universal". It's too huge. It's too big. It's just like Jesus. Its an evolving living organism that cannot be pinned down with just dogma or theology while at the same time being able to rightfully divide The Word of God! Especially since God picked Universal Christianity to decide "what" that Word of God would include. If I was a NCC, me trying to tell a Catholic that they were wrong about The Bible is like me trying to tell Stephen King that he's wrong about one of his novels. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 2, 2009 9:37:42 GMT -5
The Word is the mind of Jesus...therefore I will obey all of it. The Bible forbids drinking blood. Jesus explains that what He was talking about is spiritual. I am not a canibal, I will eat and drink to remember Christ...not to actually eat Him.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 9:38:06 GMT -5
That is so true! There were so many things Jesus said that I didn't understand or was terrified of so I basically ignored them until I became Catholic.
I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 9:47:26 GMT -5
The Word is the mind of Jesus...therefore I will obey all of it. The Bible says that it's not just His mind, but literally "Him" Himself. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. It forbids the drinking of "animal" blood, not Jesus' blood. What does that mean to you? That words are "spiritual"? To me, it means that they are words that have life (which scripture literally states just a few verses passed the one you quoted). You sound just like those non-believers in The Bible... John 6:52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. Catholics eat His flesh and drink His blood. If you "really" follow Jesus, then follow this: "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed."And what does "indeed" mean? indeed 1. in fact; in reality; in truth; truly (used for emphasis, to confirm and amplify a previous statement, to indicate a concession or admission, or, interrogatively, to obtain confirmation): You MUST believe "indeed". I do. Teresa and Ramon and CC do. All Catholics do. |
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