Catechism and the Bible

[stickman]

The Catholic Catechism reads: (1994 ed.)
www.catholicevangelism.org/indulgence-saints.shtml

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristin in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. IN THIS WAY THEY ATTAINED THEIR OWN SALVATION AND AT THE SAME TIME COOPERATED IN SAVING THEIR BROTHERS IN THE UNITY OF THE MYSTICAL BODY"

Bible: (NIV 1986)

Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."

Ephesians 2 8-10 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

The Catholic catechism and Bible seem to contradict each other. Can someone explain the Catholics justification for the "teasury" and saints saving themselves through good works?

[Cepha]

Jul 8, 2009 14:19:36 GMT -5 stickman said:

The Catholic Catechism reads: (1994 ed.)
www.catholicevangelism.org/indulgence-saints.shtml

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristin in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. IN THIS WAY THEY ATTAINED THEIR OWN SALVATION AND AT THE SAME TIME COOPERATED IN SAVING THEIR BROTHERS IN THE UNITY OF THE MYSTICAL BODY"

#1 Congratulations on actually using a Catholic document to contest our beliefs. Well done. That is the intelligent way of doing thing. Kudos!

#2 Welcome aboard.

And, now on to the response:


With regards to the Catechism quote, let's take the passage from which it was chosen:

In the Communion of Saints
1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God's grace is not alone. "The life of each of God's children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person."[85]

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things."[86] In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy."[87]

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body." [88]

Here, we see that 1477 is taken from the section referring to "The Communion of Saints".

Bible: (NIV 1986)

Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."

Ephesians 2 8-10 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

I see that you've used to verses from two different books.

First, let's take those verses in context and see if they could be used together to address what you're questioning:

According to the NIV Bible, here is the passage of context for that one verse:


Romans 11
The Remnant of Israel
1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[c]

7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[e]

Verse 6 applies to this "remnant" mentioned in verse 5.
And, only to those that were there (at "present") as the scripture states.

5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

So, that is not referring to us. That is, according to scripture. I don't know if anybody has been reincarnated from then to today, so I can't speak on them (and I don't believe in reincarnation anyway), but scripturally speaking, verse 6 applies to those in verse 5...that is, again, "if" verse 6 is taken in the context of which it's written.



So, this isn't relevant to The Catechism (CCC).




Now, on to your next selection of verses...

Ephesians 2
Made Alive in Christ
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Now we have a verses mentioning being saved all the way back to the sentence that starts with verse 4...

4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Why is it important to mention that? Again, "context". What is the context of the passage outlined in Eph 2:1-10 (not just the last few verses)?

Here, Paul was addressing a group of Believers who actually had "love for The Saints".

He literally stated this in Eph 1 (just about a dozen verses before the ones you chose).

Ephesians 1
Thanksgiving and Prayer
15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers.

So, does Paul too contradict scripture according to your understanding of it?

Paul (who for us is a "Saint") literally intercedes for us.
He even tells us in that verse (he says "...remembering you in my prayers.").

If you read the section from which you strategically chose 1 paragraph, it too agrees with the author of Ephesians...right?

Paul too talks about "treasures" with regards to what this relationship to the Saints offers (Again, from Eph 1)...

18I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and his incomparably great power for us who believe.

Eph 1
"...the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,..."

Sounds a lot like...

CCC 1477
"...In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints,..."


Now, let's define "riches" and see how it relates to "treasury":

Main Entry: riches
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: money and possessions
Synonyms: abundance, affluence, assets, fortune, gold, means, opulence, plenty, property, resources, richness, substance, treasure, wealth, worth, clover, lap of luxury

So, the two are synomous of each other.

Not only that, the 2 verses you "left out" of your Ephesians choice(s) literally mentions riches (treasure) as well...

6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

The Catholic catechism and Bible seem to contradict each other. Can someone explain the Catholics justification for the "teasury" and saints saving themselves through good works?

I agree with you and your choice of the word "seem" for you.
For you, they do "seem" to contradict each other, but, taken in context, we see that the CCC paragraph you chose to compare to those two particular verses that were only "parts" of a passage, they are not even related because CCC 1477 isn't talking about the "remnants" of Believers in the present time that Paul was talking to.

As for your Eph choice of verses, "in context", they aren't referring to the relationship between us and The Saints that are in Heaven praying (Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. and Revelation 8:3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.)

Besides all of this, it literally pleases God that we intercede on each other's behalf and the prayers of a righteous person garner much from God, so who is more righteous than The Saints?

Let's look at this example of James where the intercessions of a righteous (holy) man are referred to as "powerful and effective" as well as God being pleased with our interceding on each other's behalf...

1 Timothy 2
Instructions on Worship
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

So, "if" a Saint prays for you, how much more favor will you have with God?

Now, you notice I'm not addressing your works agrument because the passage you chose isn't addressing works, but it's in relation to the relationship between us on earth and The Saints in Heaven.

So, that is what I'm addressing.

"If" one parses scripture and combines them in an unrelated manner in an attempt to create a point, then one is guilty of doing the same thing that Satan was trying to do when he was trying to tempt Christ in The Desert..."creating" beliefs (or lies in his case) using different combinations of verses that are not related to each other and taken out of context.

When you take only "parts" of the CCC and take only "parts" of The Bible, you can create any argument you want...that is, until the verses and passages are put back into their proper context.









I think James 2 is a much better verse for the argument that I believe you are trying to present...shall we reflect on it?

(Notice how I use the entire passage and not just a verse or two)

James 2:14-26
Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.






Now, having established that, how are one's works being essential to one's salvation contrary to scripture?

Scripture is full of examples where persons who had no works were not deemed worthy of salvation.

Take for example when Jesus spoke about The Sheep and The Goats. Both were believers, but only The Sheep were allowed into heaven. Why? Because besides their faith, they also had good works, while The Goats who only had faith alone, had no works to prove their faith.

Would you say that this is right or wrong?

[Cepha]

Also, your premise is incorrect...

The Catholic catechism and Bible seem to contradict each other. Can someone explain the Catholics justification for the "teasury" and saints saving themselves through good works?

First of all, CCC 1477 doesn't say what you inferred here ("saints saving themselves through good works?"). You misread it.

It literally says the following:
"...all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation..".

See that?

It states "in this way" when it talks about them making their lives "holy" by following in the footsteps of Christ. It doesn't mention works when it talks about "how" they attained their salvation, but states very clearly that it was in their following in the footsteps of Christ that attained them their salvation AND it literallly states that it was by Jesus' grace that they did this.

Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

[a3]

Ok, I understand what you are saying.

I feel good works are a bi-product of the faith and grace of God. All analogies break down at some point but I will use one anyway. Good works is like the exhaust of a car. The engine is God, Jesus is the body, and the Holy Spirit is like the power. Good works happen automatically when the rest are working.

God states in the Bible that all good works were prepared for us in advance. There is no bonus for "doing our job". So why are we saved through these good works that God already gave us to do?

I understand the concept of "getting paid" for the job you do, my problem with works is it cheapens the sacrifice Jesus made.

[Cepha]

Jul 9, 2009 10:18:58 GMT -5 @a3 said:

Ok, I understand what you are saying.

I feel good works are a bi-product of the faith and grace of God. All analogies break down at some point but I will use one anyway. Good works is like the exhaust of a car. The engine is God, Jesus is the body, and the Holy Spirit is like the power. Good works happen automatically when the rest are working.

God states in the Bible that all good works were prepared for us in advance. There is no bonus for "doing our job". So why are we saved through these good works that God already gave us to do?

I understand the concept of "getting paid" for the job you do, my problem with works is it cheapens the sacrifice Jesus made.

Stick,

I think you didn't log in yet (that's why your profile isn't appearing on this post).

If you log in, your profile will appear.

[Cepha]

Jul 9, 2009 10:18:58 GMT -5 @a3 said:

Ok, I understand what you are saying.

I feel good works are a bi-product of the faith and grace of God. All analogies break down at some point but I will use one anyway. Good works is like the exhaust of a car. The engine is God, Jesus is the body, and the Holy Spirit is like the power. Good works happen automatically when the rest are working.

Well, here's the thing...People who "don't" believe in God could also have good works...but it won't guarantee them salvation...agreed?

And, yes, good works are a bi-product of one being in communion with God.

However, they are also requisites of Christ (again, the Goats/Sheep parable).

There are also other "works" required by God...for example, baptism, communion, repentance, etc...all things required by Christ in order for one to be saved.

All (also) are "good".

God states in the Bible that all good works were prepared for us in advance. There is no bonus for "doing our job". So why are we saved through these good works that God already gave us to do?

I'd say that salvation is the biggest bonus there is.

And if living a righteous life and if doing what Jesus told us to do (which are good works) gets us into heaven, then, that is what is required.

We cannot escape the fact that faith alone does not save.

We are not "saved" through good works.

I don't know of anywhere in The Bible where this is stated (nor in Catholic Doctrine).

In fact, the very CCC passage you listed stated quite clearly how these "Saints" brought about their own salvation...by following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ (works are not mentioned there in the formula for salvation).

I understand the concept of "getting paid" for the job you do, my problem with works is it cheapens the sacrifice Jesus made.

Nothing we do can cheapen His sacrifice.

However, Jesus Christ has set "conditions" for salvation that we cannot deny.

You must believe.
You must eat His Flesh.
You must drink His Blood.
You must be baptized in water and spirit.
You must feed the hungry, clothes the naked, etc...

There are a lot of things you "must" do (according to Jesus Christ).

These are works and if these works bring one to Christ, then they are good works.

[stickman]

Jul 9, 2009 10:31:36 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Jul 9, 2009 10:18:58 GMT -5 @a3 said:

Ok, I understand what you are saying.

I feel good works are a bi-product of the faith and grace of God. All analogies break down at some point but I will use one anyway. Good works is like the exhaust of a car. The engine is God, Jesus is the body, and the Holy Spirit is like the power. Good works happen automatically when the rest are working.

Well, here's the thing...People who "don't" believe in God could also have good works...but it won't guarantee them salvation...agreed?

And, yes, good works are a bi-product of one being in communion with God.

However, they are also requisites of Christ (again, the Goats/Sheep parable).

There are also other "works" required by God...for example, baptism, communion, repentance, etc...all things required by Christ in order for one to be saved.

All (also) are "good".








I'd say that salvation is the biggest bonus there is.

And if living a righteous life and if doing what Jesus told us to do (which are good works) gets us into heaven, then, that is what is required.

We cannot escape the fact that faith alone does not save.

We are not "saved" through good works.

I don't know of anywhere in The Bible where this is stated (nor in Catholic Doctrine).

In fact, the very CCC passage you listed stated quite clearly how these "Saints" brought about their own salvation...by following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ (works are not mentioned there in the formula for salvation).

I understand the concept of "getting paid" for the job you do, my problem with works is it cheapens the sacrifice Jesus made.

Nothing we do can cheapen His sacrifice.

However, Jesus Christ has set "conditions" for salvation that we cannot deny.

You must believe.
You must eat His Flesh.
You must drink His Blood.
You must be baptized in water and spirit.
You must feed the hungry, clothes the naked, etc...

There are a lot of things you "must" do (according to Jesus Christ).

These are works and if these works bring one to Christ, then they are good works.

So what Bible passages can we accept and apply to our lives (if all passages are suppose to be taken in context only.)?

[stickman]

opps,

What passages of the Bible can we apply to our lives today, if all Bible passages are meant to be in context only?

[teresahrc]

That's why we need the Church stickman. If you want to find the answer to that, look to the Pillar and Foundation of truth.

[Ramon]

Jul 13, 2009 11:33:41 GMT -5 stickman said:

opps,

What passages of the Bible can we apply to our lives today, if all Bible passages are meant to be in context only?

To read Holy Scriptures, we need guidance. Our, Eastern Orthodox Christians, guidance is the Holy Spirit working in the Church. The Church is the interpreter of Scriptures because she is guided by the Holy Spirit. We must interpret Scriptures within the Living Tradition of Church, for Holy Scriptures is a product of the Church, it is part of Holy Tradition. The Church is our guide and the foundation of Christian Truth.

All Scriptures must be taken within context, and all Scriptures must agree with each other. Of course, Holy Scriptures can be interpreted different ways within the Church-there exist different levels of Scriptures: Literal level, symbolic level, allegorical level. Scriptures can also be interpreted typologically, and so on. All approaches are valid, and any given Scriptures can have multiple interpretations, but we must always be aware the literal sense of most Scriptures, not that we are "literalists" (As Pop-Evangelicals Protestants are).

One of the dangerous method that some Pop-Evangelicals have accepted and follow is "Proof-texting", in other words, the use of individual scripture texts to produce apparent support for a doctrinal position without adequate regard for the contexts of the individual texts which may indicate differences and nuances. All to often, Pop-Evangelicals take a Scripture without any regard to it's context, nor other Scriptures which disagree with there interpretation, to create a doctrine or refute a existing orthodox doctrine

In IC.XC,
Ramon

[stickman]

So, I am forced to accept the dogma of another church over my own beliefs from studying the Bible?

[Cepha]

Jul 13, 2009 11:32:27 GMT -5 stickman said:

So what Bible passages can we accept and apply to our lives (if all passages are suppose to be taken in context only.)?

Great question.

Anything in scripture can be applied to modern day life since it is a living breathing work that is written in man's heart.

However, when we read it, we can only retract from it what it "means" in the situation that it's applied to or else, we too would be reading what Satan told Eve and what Satan told Jesus when he tried to tempt him in the desert as "Biblical Truth" just because it's "written" even though "how" Satan was using his words were in a deceiptful manner.

[Cepha]

Jul 14, 2009 14:37:37 GMT -5 stickman said:

So, I am forced to accept the dogma of another church over my own beliefs from studying the Bible?

Absolutely not Stix.

You should follow what God calls you to do.



You don't even have to be "in" an organized church to please God.

Just live out the calling He places in your heart.

That is a personal relationship between you and Him.

God calls His faithful to where He wants them.

Some are Catholic, some are Protestant, some are Muslim, some are Jewish.

That's all up to God.

We can't decide for Him.

God bless you Stix.

I see a good heart "in" your writings.

You always impress me with your words.

[Ramon]

Jul 14, 2009 14:37:37 GMT -5 stickman said:

So, I am forced to accept the dogma of another church over my own beliefs from studying the Bible?

Stickman, you are not forced to do anything. We Orthodox only say "Come and See" the Ancient Faith in it's fullness. We invite all to come to our Apostolic Church, and if you want to join the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, Amen, but you are free to reject coming to the Holy Mother Church as well. You can still be saved, according to Orthodox understanding, if you are a non-Orthodox Christian, but only we have the faith in its fullness, and no other, and coming to the Apostolic Church of the East will the best decision you will ever make! We follow in footsteps of Jesus Christ, the Holy Apostles, there Holy Successors, the God-Bearing Fathers and Mothers, and the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils. I refuse to differ in any consensus teachings of the Early Church Fathers.

Stickman, it's your choice if you want to be part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church in the East, the Eastern Orthodox Church, but only the Holy Spirit can you lead there. We can only communicate the Gospel to you, God does the rest.

May God Bless you Stickman. I will encourage you, like I do to all non-Orthodox Christians, to Come and See. Go to a nearby canonical Eastern Orthodox parish in your area, preferably one who uses English as there primary language, and see the Ancient Faith in the Fullness.

In IC.XC,
Ramon