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Post by teresahrc on Jul 24, 2009 22:13:31 GMT -5
If you were dying in the street and there wasn't an Orthodox Priest around, would you make your confession to a Catholic Priest?
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Post by Ramon on Jul 24, 2009 23:11:06 GMT -5
If you were dying in the street and there wasn't an Orthodox Priest around, would you make your confession to a Catholic Priest? There will be no reason why I wouldn't, but then we have to go to the all issue on whether or not Catholic orders are valid, from a Orthodox perceptive. That seem like a weird situation though. I am dying in the street, and the person I see above me is a Catholic Priest.....LOL! He should be getting me to the hospital not hearing my confession...... ;D In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by teresahrc on Jul 24, 2009 23:20:40 GMT -5
Why wouldn't the Catholic orders be valid from an Orthodox perspective? What makes Orthodox orders valid?
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Post by Ramon on Jul 25, 2009 22:25:50 GMT -5
Why wouldn't the Catholic orders be valid from an Orthodox perspective? What makes Orthodox orders valid? First, I would like to say that while some Orthodox may be willing to say that the Romans' sacraments are not valid it is not universally agreed upon by any stretch of the imagination. The Orthodox Church has not declared that the sacraments of Rome are graceless and invalid. Within the Fathers, there are two line of thought. One of those is the sacramentology of St. Cyprian of Carthage, which holds that there are no sacraments outside the Church. Certain Fathers said some extreme things. For example, St. Athanasius says that baptism outside the Church is a baptism into atheism. However, to the best of my knoweldge, which I will admit is very limited in this area, the Orthodox Church holds to the sacramentology of St. Cyprian of Carthage, which holds that there are no sacraments outside the Church. Does that mean God cannot work outside the Church? No. Personally, I view it as saying the Holy Spirit does not work through non-Orthodox bodies as institutions. The grace of God revealed and working outside the Church does so because of the overflowing of grace from the Orthodox Church. What grace happens is in spite of the heterodox confession/church, and not because of it. Actually, I have ask this question to a few Orthodox Priests, and they personally do not question the validity of the Rome's Sacraments. I know where the Holy Spirit is at, and where the Holy Mysteries (or Sacraments) is valid, but I do not know where the Holy Spirit is not. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 28, 2009 8:29:21 GMT -5
If you were dying in the street and there wasn't an Orthodox Priest around, would you make your confession to a Catholic Priest? If it were reversed, I'd ask for an E.O. Priest (if there wasn't a R.C. Priest). I'd be happy to confess my sins to him, receive the absolution God gave him the authority to loosen and die in peace knowing that I've been ministered to by one of his Holy Priests! ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 28, 2009 8:50:25 GMT -5
If you were dying in the street and there wasn't an Orthodox Priest around, would you make your confession to a Catholic Priest? There will be no reason why I wouldn't, but then we have to go to the all issue on whether or not Catholic orders are valid, from a Orthodox perceptive. That seem like a weird situation though. I am dying in the street, and the person I see above me is a Catholic Priest.....LOL! He should be getting me to the hospital not hearing my confession...... ;D In IC.XC, Ramon LOL! Did you know that Catholic Priest would hear anybody's confessions? Even if the person doesn't recognize their "office" (not saying you do either way), The Priest is ordained by God (not by the person) and thus can issue the sacrament of Confession to the dieing person. When I was in the military, it was amazing how many people get religious. In the barracks, the only impliment allowed besides "official" military gear was religious gear. I put a Rosary on my bed pole. Then, all the Catholics wanted one. So, I got them Rosaries. Then, all the Protestants wanted them too! So I got them Rosaries too! Then, all the Muslims wanted them too! So I got them Rosaries too! Then, I took out my Bible and we'd sometimes sit down and read scripture together. Nothing brings people together like a common enemy (fear). I wish it had stayed like that (us all being able to get along), but once the "need" for fellowship was gone, we went our separate ways. But, it was a beautiful sight to walk down the barracks and see Rosaries on almost every single bunk bed post! It was truly beautiful! Kind of like this is beautiful too...  |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 28, 2009 9:31:13 GMT -5
Why wouldn't the Catholic orders be valid from an Orthodox perspective? What makes Orthodox orders valid? First, I would like to say that while some Orthodox may be willing to say that the Romans' sacraments are not valid it is not universally agreed upon by any stretch of the imagination. The Orthodox Church has not declared that the sacraments of Rome are graceless and invalid. Within the Fathers, there are two line of thought. One of those is the sacramentology of St. Cyprian of Carthage, which holds that there are no sacraments outside the Church. Certain Fathers said some extreme things. For example, St. Athanasius says that baptism outside the Church is a baptism into atheism. However, to the best of my knoweldge, which I will admit is very limited in this area, the Orthodox Church holds to the sacramentology of St. Cyprian of Carthage, which holds that there are no sacraments outside the Church. Does that mean God cannot work outside the Church? No. Personally, I view it as saying the Holy Spirit does not work through non-Orthodox bodies as institutions. The grace of God revealed and working outside the Church does so because of the overflowing of grace from the Orthodox Church. What grace happens is in spite of the heterodox confession/church, and not because of it. Actually, I have ask this question to a few Orthodox Priests, and they personally do not question the validity of the Rome's Sacraments. I know where the Holy Spirit is at, and where the Holy Mysteries (or Sacraments) is valid, but I do not know where the Holy Spirit is not. In IC.XC, Ramon Excellent response. Catholics accept the validity of The EO's Sacraments. We genuflect (make the sign of The Cross) when we pass an EO Church because we know that The Body of Christ is there. In extreme situations, we can commune with EO's if there is no Catholic Church and with the permission of the local EO Church (which is rarely if ever denied). I love that.  |
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Post by teresahrc on Jul 28, 2009 18:18:36 GMT -5
awww...I put a rosary on my bed post too.
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Post by teresahrc on Jul 28, 2009 18:23:51 GMT -5
Ramon, you said that Orthodox do not universally agree on sacraments from non-Orthodox Churches.
I don't have any problems with them not agreeing, but do you ever find that to be confusing? I have tried many times to find out "official" Orthodox teachings on certain issues, but I have found that to be a difficult thing to do.
What are the bare requirements of being Orthodox? Belief in the creed? Or more than that? How does an Orthodox person know if they are believing the right things? Besides that, if an Orthodox person does believe the right things, are they still Orthodox if they aren't practicing the right things?
I'm not trying to argue with you, I've just been wondering these things for several years.
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Post by Cepha on Jul 29, 2009 9:55:52 GMT -5
awww...I put a rosary on my bed post too. I'm partial to a blue rosary. One day, I'd love to own a handmade rosary.  |
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Post by teresahrc on Jul 29, 2009 16:17:31 GMT -5
I know this sounds really shallow, but if I have a really nice rosary, or one that someone special gave to me, I pray it more.
I know someone that makes rosaries. Do you want me to get one for you?
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Post by Cepha on Jul 30, 2009 9:04:35 GMT -5
I know this sounds really shallow, but if I have a really nice rosary, or one that someone special gave to me, I pray it more. I know someone that makes rosaries. Do you want me to get one for you? I would love it. I just gave away my one and only rosary. Thanks! |
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Post by Ramon on Aug 2, 2009 22:21:46 GMT -5
I have tried many times to find out "official" Orthodox teachings on certain issues, but I have found that to be a difficult thing to do. What issues? The entire Orthodox communion are one in there understanding on God, the Holy Trinity, The Holy Incarnation, Baptism, Eucharist (and the other Holy Sacraments), Tradition, Holy Icons, the Theotokos, the Saints, the Angels, Sin, demons, the Devil, and many other topics. We follow and believe the Holy Nicene Creed and the decrees of the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils. An Exact Expostion of the Orthodox Faith by St. John Damascene is a great Catechism. We differ in a few areas, like his canon of the Holy Bible, but overall, it faithfully transmit the Orthodox faith, and I will say maybe the Catholic Faith as well. Now, of course, they exist many Theological opinions within Orthodoxy. That's the beauty of Orthodoxy. There exist diversity. Certain topics within Orthodoxy falls under the categorically of "theological opinion " (pious opinion ). For example, it is permissible to believe that the "Sons of God" in Genesis 6:1-4 was "Angels" (I do), however, this is not Orthodox teaching, and you will find other views within Orthodoxy. We don't dogmatize until forced to. We admit that the faith is a mystery, and therefore expressible in a huge variety of ways.
How does an Orthodox person know if they are believing the right things? Besides that, if an Orthodox person does believe the right things, are they still Orthodox if they aren't practicing the right things?
A Orthodox know when they are believing the right things when he or she is taught under the guidance of a canonical Orthodox Priest or Spiritual Father in communion with other Orthodox jurisdictions.
Second, I am not sure how a Orthodox can believe the right things yet do not live out the Faith (do you mean all the time?). Orthodoxy is a way life. It is journey. There are time when all of us do not practice what we preach. We are humans. We will fall down. But we can get up through Christ and His Church.
In IC.XC,
Ramon |
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