|
|
Post by Cepha on Aug 11, 2009 8:33:03 GMT -5
Prove, by using the actual Bill itself, the following allegations:
1. Obama wants to have a "death panel" that will kill Down Syndrome babies and the elderly.
2. Obama's plan would bankrupt the economy.
3. Obama's plan wants to take Health Care "away" from people.
4. Obama's plan wants to take out the private health insurance companies.
5. Obama's plan wants to "ration" care.
6. Obama's plan will include funding for abortion.
7. Obama's plan will cover illegal immigrants.
8. Obama wants to Socialize medicine.
You can only use the actual Health Care Bill itself to prove these allegations (no videos, opinions...you have to prove these allegations).
Also, feel free to add on any other allegations you want to (of course, with evidence that they are true).
;D
|
|
|
|
Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 11, 2009 15:57:02 GMT -5
Well, i see people from canada that know how there healthcare system has failed them and their testomony. We dont want that to happen here! You cant tell me that you have not heard any of it..
|
|
|
|
Post by alfie on Aug 11, 2009 17:23:33 GMT -5
Prove, by using the actual Bill itself, the following allegations: Obama wants to Socialize medicine.
1. Obama wants to have a "death panel" that will kill Down Syndrome babies and the elderly.
2. Obama's plan would bankrupt the economy.
3. Obama's plan wants to take Health Care "away" from people.
4. Obama's plan wants to take out the private health insurance companies.
5. Obama's plan wants to "ration" care.
6. Obama's plan will include funding for abortion.
7. Obama's plan will cover illegal immigrants.You can only use the actual Health Care Bill itself to prove these allegations (no videos, opinions...you have to prove these allegations). Also, feel free to add on any other allegations you want to (of course, with evidence that they are true). ;D Well you can't prove these claims aren't true because the health plan is too vague which is the way Obama wanted it so he can pull the wool over people's eyes. If it were in plain terms no one would support it. |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Aug 12, 2009 9:21:05 GMT -5
Well, i see people from canada that know how there healthcare system has failed them and their testomony. We dont want that to happen here! You cant tell me that you have not heard any of it.. What does Canada have to do with the U.S. plan? I'm sure there are a lot of countries who aren't happy with their plan...why bring Canada up here? Besides, could you please take those items that I listed that you believe are true and show me "in" Obama's plan where they are?  |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Aug 12, 2009 9:32:58 GMT -5
Well you can't prove these claims aren't true because the health plan is too vague which is the way Obama wanted it so he can pull the wool over people's eyes. If it were in plain terms no one would support it. Well, obviously, someone "understood" it enough because their opposed to it and these are the items that are supposedly proposed by the plan. All I'm asking for is the evidence. What pages are these things on? What sections? Don't you think that if someone made these allegations and they were true, they'd provide actual evidence like what pages on the plan their on? That's all I'm asking for. Exactly "where" in the plan does it state any of the things I posted? By the way, there's no such thing as "vague" in a plan. It has to be detailed in order to stop the abuse that took place with all the loopholes in the current system. I've heard the completely opposite charge, that it was too "hard" to read and/or understand. Doesn't the opposition have lawyers working for them that can read documents? Anyway, I don't want to debate the inability of some to understand it. I just want the proof that these things are true. And the only way one can prove that Obama's plan will do any of the things they alledge is by posting the page that these things can be found on. It's actually quite simple.  |
|
|
|
Post by knuckle on Aug 12, 2009 9:48:22 GMT -5
Hi Cepha-----------
if you have the bill in front of you check this out....
1. Obama wants to have a "death panel" that will kill Down Syndrome babies and the elderly.
Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 Pg 239 Line 14-24 PG 429 Lines 10-12
2. Obama's plan would bankrupt the economy.
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 (bankrupt? but it is going to cost a bundle in both taxes and co-pays)
3. Obama's plan wants to take Health Care "away" from people.
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill rationing health care Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339
4. Obama's plan wants to take out the private health insurance companies.
PG 265 Sec 1131
5. Obama's plan wants to "ration" care.
PG 268 Sec 1141 PG 272 SEC. 1145 Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 etc
6. Obama's plan will include funding for abortion
PG 489 Sec 1308 though the word "abortion" has been replaced with "family planning"
7. Obama's plan will cover illegal immigrants.
PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill
The Bill is written in "leagalese" and is 1012 pages long so other parts of the bill address these subjects but I covered the main addresses to these issues
if you would like to break it down by line we could....take a month or better though.
much love----------knuckle
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Aug 12, 2009 14:00:15 GMT -5
Hi Cepha----------- if you have the bill in front of you check this out.... 1. Obama wants to have a "death panel" that will kill Down Syndrome babies and the elderly. Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 Pg 239 Line 14-24 PG 429 Lines 10-12 Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 8 (1) OUTREACH.—The Commissioner shall con9
duct outreach activities consistent with subsection
10 (c), including through use of appropriate entities as
11 described in paragraph (4) of such subsection, to in12
form and educate individuals and employers about
13 the Health Insurance Exchange and Exchange-par14
ticipating health benefits plan options. Such out15
reach shall include outreach specific to vulnerable
16 populations, such as children, individuals with dis17
abilities, individuals with mental illness, and individ18
uals with other cognitive impairments.This is literally saying that they would reach out to these parties mentioned to help them with them making health related decisions. Where do you see anything regarding a "death panel" killing them? Pg 239 Line 14-24 14 (c) LIMITATION ON PHYSICIANS’ SERVICES IN15
CLUDED IN TARGET GROWTH RATE COMPUTATION TO
16 SERVICES COVERED UNDER PHYSICIAN FEE SCHED17
ULE.—Effective for services furnished on or after January
18 1, 2009, section 1848(f)(4)(A) of such Act is amended
19 striking ‘‘(such as clinical’’ and all that follows through
20 ‘‘in a physician’s office’’ and inserting ‘‘for which payment
21 under this part is made under the fee schedule under this
22 section, for services for practitioners described in section
23 1842(b)(18)(C) on a basis related to such fee schedule,
24 or for services described in section 1861(p) (other thanThere, I see no mention of a "death panel" killing the elderly or Down Syndrome babies either. Do you? Here, their talking about payment schedules on services for said parties. PG 429 Lines 10-12 10 ‘‘(4) A consultation under this subsection may in11
clude the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining
12 treatment or a similar order.Here, their talking about advising persons' involved with regards to "advance care planning". Where do you see a "death panel" killing the elderly or Down Syndrome children here? Pg 126 Lines 22-25 20 (b) LICENSURE OR CERTIFICATION.—The Secretary
21 shall not allow a health care provider to participate in the
22 public health insurance option unless such provider is ap23
propriately licensed or certified under State law.
24 (c) PAYMENT TERMS FOR PROVIDERS.—
VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00126 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 C:\TEMP\AAHCA0~1.XML HOLCPC
July 14,This talks about proper licensing. Where do you see taxes or co-pay mentioned there? PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill 7 (c) SPECIFICATION OF BENEFIT LEVELS FORThat section talks about the levels of care, not rationing. Where do you see health care being taken away from people? Pg335 L 16-25 16 ‘‘(ii) ESTABLISHMENT OF OUTCOME17
BASED MEASURES.—By not later than for
18 2013 the Secretary shall implement report19
ing requirements for quality under this
20 section on measures selected under clause
21 (iii) that reflect the outcomes of care expe22
rienced by individuals enrolled in Medicare
23 Advantage plans (in addition to measures
24 described in clause (i)). Such measures
25 may include—That's talking about plans specifications, but doesn't mention health care being taken away from people. Pg 336-339 336
1 ‘‘(I) measures of rates of admis2
sion and readmission to a hospital;
3 ‘‘(II) measures of prevention
4 quality, such as those established by
5 the Agency for Healthcare Research
6 and Quality (that include hospital ad7
mission rates for specified conditions);
8 ‘‘(III) measures of patient mor9
tality and morbidity following surgery;
10 ‘‘(IV) measures of health func11
tioning (such as limitations on activi12
ties of daily living) and survival for
13 patients with chronic diseases;
14 ‘‘(V) measures of patient safety;
15 and
16 ‘‘(VI) other measure of outcomes
17 and patient quality of life as deter18
mined by the Secretary.
19 Such measures shall be risk-adjusted as
20 the Secretary deems appropriate. In deter21
mining the quality measures to be used
22 under this clause, the Secretary shall take
23 into consideration the recommendations of
24 the Medicare Payment Advisory Commis25
sion in its report to Congress under section
VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00336 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 C:\TEMP\AAHCA0~1.XML HOLCPC
July 14, 2009 (12:51 p.m.)
F:\P11\NHI\TRICOMM\AAHCA09_001.XML
f:\VHLC\071409\071409.140.xml (444390|2)
337
1 168 of the Medicare Improvements for Pa2
tients and Providers Act of 2008 (Public
3 Law 110–275) and shall provide pref4
erence to measures collected on and com5
parable to measures used in measuring
6 quality under parts A and B.
7 ‘‘(iii) RULES FOR SELECTION OF
8 MEASURES.—The Secretary shall select
9 measures for purposes of clause (ii) con10
sistent with the following:
11 ‘‘(I) The Secretary shall provide
12 preference to clinical quality measures
13 that have been endorsed by the entity
14 with a contract with the Secretary
15 under section 1890(a).
16 ‘‘(II) Prior to any measure being
17 selected under this clause, the Sec18
retary shall publish in the Federal
19 Register such measure and provide for
20 a period of public comment on such
21 measure.
22 ‘‘(iv) TRANSITIONAL USE OF
23 BLEND.—For payments for 2014 and
24 2015, the Secretary may compute the qual25
ity performance score for a Medicare AdThis is talking about payment plans. 265
1 PART 2—MARKET BASKET UPDATES
2 SEC. 1131. INCORPORATING PRODUCTIVITY IMPROVE3
MENTS INTO MARKET BASKET UPDATES
4 THAT DO NOT ALREADY INCORPORATE SUCH
5 IMPROVEMENTS.
6 (a) OUTPATIENT HOSPITALS.—
7 (1) IN GENERAL.—The first sentence of section
8 1833(t)(3)(C)(iv) of the Social Security Act (42
9 U.S.C. 1395l(t)(3)(C)(iv)) is amended—
10 (A) by inserting ‘‘(which is subject to the
11 productivity adjustment described in subclause
12 (II) of such section)’’ after
13 ‘‘1886(b)(3)(B)(iii)’’; and
14 (B) by inserting ‘‘(but not below 0)’’ after
15 ‘‘reduced’’.
16 (2) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendments made
17 by paragraph (1) shall apply to increase factors for
18 services furnished in years beginning with 2010.
19 (b) AMBULANCE SERVICES.—Section 1834(l)(3)(B)
20 of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1395m(l)(3)(B))) is amended by
21 inserting before the period at the end the following: ‘‘and,
22 in the case of years beginning with 2010, subject to the
23 productivity adjustment described in section
24 1886(b)(3)(B)(iii)(II)’’.I don't see any talk of any government entity eliminating private insurance companies there. PG 268 Sec 1141 2 SEC. 1141. RENTAL AND PURCHASE OF POWER-DRIVEN
3 WHEELCHAIRS.
4 (a) IN GENERAL.—Section 1834(a)(7)(A)(iii) of the
5 Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395m(a)(7)(A)(iii)) is
6 amended—
7 (1) in the heading, by inserting ‘‘CERTAIN COM8
PLEX REHABILITATIVE’’ after ‘‘OPTION FOR’’; and
9 (2) by striking ‘‘power-driven wheelchair’’ and
10 inserting ‘‘complex rehabilitative power-driven wheel11
chair recognized by the Secretary as classified within
12 group 3 or higher’’.
13 (b) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendments made by
14 subsection (a) shall take effect on January 1, 2011, and
15 shall apply to power-driven wheelchairs furnished on or
16 after such date. Such amendments shall not apply to con17
tracts entered into under section 1847 of the Social Secu18
rity Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w–3) pursuant to a bid submitted
19 under such section before October 1, 2010, under sub20
section (a)(1)(B)(i)(I) of such section.
21PG 272 SEC. 1145 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS.
5 Section 1833(t) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C.
6 1395l(t)) is amended by adding at the end the following
7 new paragraph:
8 ‘‘(18) AUTHORIZATION OF ADJUSTMENT FOR
9 CANCER HOSPITALS.—
10 ‘‘(A) STUDY.—The Secretary shall conduct
11 a study to determine if, under the system under
12 this subsection, costs incurred by hospitals de13
scribed in section 1886(d)(1)(B)(v) with respect
14 to ambulatory payment classification groups ex15
ceed those costs incurred by other hospitals fur16
nishing services under this subsection (as deter17
mined appropriate by the Secretary).
18 ‘‘(B) AUTHORIZATION OF ADJUSTMENT.—
19 Insofar as the Secretary determines under sub20
paragraph (A) that costs incurred by hospitals
21 described in section 1886(d)(1)(B)(v) exceed
22 those costs incurred by other hospitals fur23
nishing services under this subsection, the Sec24
retary shall provide for an appropriate adjust25
ment under paragraph (2)(E) to reflect those
VerDate NovThis is excellent! This is to ensure that prices are competative in order to keep the cost of health care low! No standards are dropped! To the contrary, it insists that standards be equal! Pg335 L 16-25 16 ‘‘(ii) ESTABLISHMENT OF OUTCOME17
BASED MEASURES.—By not later than for
18 2013 the Secretary shall implement report
19 ing requirements for quality under this
20 section on measures selected under clause
21 (iii) that reflect the outcomes of care expe22
rienced by individuals enrolled in Medicare
23 Advantage plans (in addition to measures
24 described in clause (i)). Such measures
25 may include—These are standards set for care providers. If anything, this ensures that the patient gets the quality of health care that is being payed for. Pg 336-339 336
1 ‘‘(I) measures of rates of admis2
sion and readmission to a hospital;
3 ‘‘(II) measures of prevention
4 quality, such as those established by
5 the Agency for Healthcare Research
6 and Quality (that include hospital ad7
mission rates for specified conditions);
8 ‘‘(III) measures of patient mor9
tality and morbidity following surgery;
10 ‘‘(IV) measures of health func11
tioning (such as limitations on activi12
ties of daily living) and survival for
13 patients with chronic diseases;
14 ‘‘(V) measures of patient safety;
15 and
16 ‘‘(VI) other measure of outcomes
17 and patient quality of life as deter18
mined by the Secretary.
19 Such measures shall be risk-adjusted as
20 the Secretary deems appropriate. In deter21
mining the quality measures to be used
22 under this clause, the Secretary shall take
23 into consideration the recommendations of
24 the Medicare Payment Advisory Commis25
sion in its report to Congress under section
VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00336 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 C:\TEMP\AAHCA0~1.XML HOLCPC
July 14, 2009 (12:51 p.m.)
F:\P11\NHI\TRICOMM\AAHCA09_001.XML
f:\VHLC\071409\071409.140.xml (444390|2)
337
1 168 of the Medicare Improvements for Pa2
tients and Providers Act of 2008 (Public
3 Law 110–275) and shall provide pref4
erence to measures collected on and com5
parable to measures used in measuring
6 quality under parts A and B.
7 ‘‘(iii) RULES FOR SELECTION OF
8 MEASURES.—The Secretary shall select
9 measures for purposes of clause (ii) con10
sistent with the following:
11 ‘‘(I) The Secretary shall provide
12 preference to clinical quality measures
13 that have been endorsed by the entity
14 with a contract with the Secretary
15 under section 1890(a).
16 ‘‘(II) Prior to any measure being
17 selected under this clause, the Sec18
retary shall publish in the Federal
19 Register such measure and provide for
20 a period of public comment on such
21 measure.
22 ‘‘(iv) TRANSITIONAL USE OF
23 BLEND.—For payments for 2014 and
24 2015, the Secretary may compute the qual25
ity performance score for a Medicare Ad-
VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00337 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 C:\TEMP\AAHCA0~1.XML HOLCPC
July 14, 2009 (12:51 p.m.)
F:\P11\NHI\TRICOMM\AAHCA09_001.XML
f:\VHLC\071409\071409.140.xml (444390|2)
338
1 vantage plan based on a blend of the meas2
ures specified in clause (i) and the meas3
ures described in clause (ii) and selected
4 under clause (iii).
5 ‘‘(v) USE OF QUALITY OUTCOMES
6 MEASURES.—For payments beginning with
7 2016, the preponderance of measures used
8 under this paragraph shall be quality out9
comes measures described in clause (ii)
10 and selected under clause (iii).
11 ‘‘(C) DATA USED IN COMPUTING SCORE.—
12 Such score for application for—
13 ‘‘(i) payments in 2011 shall be based
14 on quality performance data for plans for
15 2009; and
16 ‘‘(ii) payments in 2012 and a subse17
quent year shall be based on quality per18
formance data for plans for the second
19 preceding year.
20 ‘‘(D) REPORTING OF DATA.—Each Medi21
care Advantage organization shall provide for
22 the reporting to the Secretary of quality per23
formance data described in subparagraph (B)
24 (in order to determine a quality performance
VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00338 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 C:\TEMP\AAHCA0~1.XML HOLCPC
July 14, 2009 (12:51 p.m.)
F:\P11\NHI\TRICOMM\AAHCA09_001.XML
f:\VHLC\071409\071409.140.xml (444390|2)
339
1 score under this paragraph) in such time and
2 manner as the Secretary shall specify.
3 ‘‘(E) RANKING OF PLANS.—
4 ‘‘(i) INITIAL RANKING.—Based on the
5 quality performance score described in sub6
paragraph (B) achieved with respect to a
7 year, the Secretary shall rank plan per8
formance—
9 ‘‘(I) from highest to lowest based
10 on absolute scores; and
11 ‘‘(II) from highest to lowest
12 based on percentage improvement in
13 the score for the plan from the pre14
vious year.
15 A plan which does not report quality per16
formance data under subparagraph (D)
17 shall be counted, for purposes of such
18 ranking, as having the lowest plan per19
formance and lowest percentage improve20
ment.
21 ‘‘(ii) IDENTIFICATION OF HIGH QUAL22
ITY PLANS IN TOP QUINTILE BASED ON
23 PROJECTED ENROLLMENT.—The Secretary
24 shall, based on the scores for each plan
25 under clause (i)(I) and the Secretary’s pro-Those are standards applied to ensure that the patient actually GETS what the plan pays for. It's literally "quality control". It's the complete opposite of rationing. 19 SEC. 1308. COVERAGE OF MARRIAGE AND FAMILY THERA20
PIST SERVICES AND MENTAL HEALTH COUN21
SELOR SERVICES.
22 (a) COVERAGE OF MARRIAGE AND FAMILY THERA23
PIST SERVICES.—
24 (1) COVERAGE OF SERVICES.—Section
25 1861(s)(2) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C.I don't see any mention of the term "family planning" there. Nor, do I see any mention of termination of pregnancies or anything remotely relating "to" abortion there at all. It mentions "mental" care (not physical care). 21 SEC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE.
22 (a) IN GENERAL.—Except as otherwise explicitly per23
mitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations con24
sistent with this Act, all health care and related services
25 (including insurance coverage and public health activities)I don't see any mention there regarding providing care to anyone that doesn't qualify for coverage under this bill. Illegals cannot be excluded since they don't qualify for coverage in the first place. In fact, there is no mention of illegal immigrants there at all. Well, it's clear by what you suggested are proofs of the allegattions against the bill don't mention anything alleged at all. Not only that, there is no way to tie in what is posted to anything alleged by opponents of the bill. If the other parts of the bill addressed these issues specifically, then maybe you should've actually posted them instead of these because none of these in anyway support the allegations proposed by opponents of the bill. ;D |
|
|
|
Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 13, 2009 2:25:13 GMT -5
If the plan is to provide lower costing health care...dont you think that we will get a lower QUALITY health care? That makes sence to me...if the docs arent making the money they will go elsewhere or just retire!
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Aug 13, 2009 8:07:13 GMT -5
If the plan is to provide lower costing health care...dont you think that we will get a lower QUALITY health care? That makes sence to me...if the docs arent making the money they will go elsewhere or just retire! When there is no profit involved in health care, then the focus is on "cost" of health care. When the big health care (HC) insurance companies have some competition, you'll see how quickly they get their acts together. Right now, the way the system is rigged, they are all working together to keep costs high. And, no Dr. will not make money. They will always make money. The only time they'll quit is when they can't overcharge people (for which I'll say, good riddens). |
|
