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Post by emily445455 on Apr 15, 2008 15:58:00 GMT -5
"Water" in this statement doesn't mean water baptism. Baptism is a work, works do not Save. The man on the cross next to Jesus was never baptized.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 16:11:23 GMT -5
"Water" in this statement doesn't mean water baptism. Baptism is a work, works do not Save. The man on the cross next to Jesus was never baptized. This has nothing to do with water. This has to do with Jesus saying that unless you are born of water and spirit, you will not be born again. As for the Theif on The Cross, that's like me making an reservation to meet the President and me having a seat next to him at a McDonald's where I can strike up a conversation with him without needing the appointment. Baptism is a reservation. But if the President is right next to me, I don't need to make a reservation to meet him. Jesus' words in person overrule any thing. He can make exceptions directly. By the way, that Theif did a work. He "confessed" that Jesus was the Saviour and professesed his faith in Him. Not only that, he defended Jesus. Those are all physical actions that showed his faith and thus, Jesus saved him. All the faith in the world alone will not save you. Faith without works is dead. You have to have works to be saved forever. There's being saved from original sin (curse of Adam) and then there's being saved from actual sin (sins you committed). You can be born again from original sin, but still not go to heaven. Jesus condemns born again Christians in Revelation 2&3 when He judges their works. |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 15, 2008 16:34:04 GMT -5
Jesus cannot make exceptions, He doesn't contradict Himself. He can't say "you need to be baptized to be Saved", then allow others not to be Saved...that's contraditing Himself.
When I say Saved I mean going to Heaven. You don't need to be baptized to accept Jesus into your heart which = going to heaven.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 15, 2008 16:40:45 GMT -5
Emily, one question for ya...when your church has the "sybolization" of the last supper, do yall use grape juice or wine?
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 15, 2008 16:58:21 GMT -5
Grape juice I believe.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 15, 2008 18:34:59 GMT -5
Now if your church is NOT against drinking, then why do the use the grapejuice instead of wine? Because they are against drinking!!  |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 15, 2008 19:03:24 GMT -5
I think it's used for two reasons: 1) it doesn't really matter what is used (maybe not pizza and milk....); 2) minors take communion.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 20:42:11 GMT -5
I think it's used for two reasons: 1) it doesn't really matter what is used (maybe not pizza and milk....); 2) minors take communion. Wine is one of the two elements absolutely necessary for the sacrifice of the Eucharist. For valid and licit consecration vinum de vite, i.e. the pure juice of the grape naturally and properly fermented, is to be used. Wine made out of raisins, provided that from its colour and taste it may be judged to be pure, may be used (Collect. S. C. de Prop. Fide, n. 705). It may be white or red, weak or strong, sweet or dry. Since the validity of the Holy Sacrifice, and the lawfulness of its celebration, require absolutely genuine wine, it becomes the serious obligation of the celebrant to procure only pure wines. And since wines are frequently so adulterated as to escape minute chemical analysis, it may be taken for granted that the safest way of procuring pure wine is to buy it not at second hand, but directly from a manufacturer who understands and conscientiously respects the great responsibility involved in the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice. If the wine is changed into vinegar, or is become putrid or corrupted, if it was pressed from grapes that were not fully ripe, or if it is mixed with such a quantity of water that it can hardly be called wine, its use is forbidden (Missale Rom., De Defectibus, tit. iv, 1). If the wine begins to turn into vinegar, or to become putrid, or if the unfermented juice is pressed from the grape, it would be a grievous offence to use it, but it is considered valid matter (ibid., 2). To conserve weak and feeble wines, and in order to keep them from souring or spoiling during transportation, a small quantity of spirits of wine (grape brandy or alcohol) may be added, provided the following conditions are observed: (1) The added spirit ( alcohol) must have been distilled from the grape (ex genimime vitis); (2) the quantity of alcohol added, together with that which the wine contained naturally after fermentation, must not exceed eighteen per cent of the whole; (3) the addition must be made during the process of fermentation (S. Romana et Univ. Inquis., 5 August, 1896). www.newadvent.org/cathen/01358a.htmTechnically speaking, a sip of watered down pure wine with no artificial additives does not register in the human body. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 20:47:30 GMT -5
Jesus cannot make exceptions, He doesn't contradict Himself. He can't say "you need to be baptized to be Saved", then allow others not to be Saved...that's contraditing Himself. When I say Saved I mean going to Heaven. You don't need to be baptized to accept Jesus into your heart which = going to heaven. Outstanding defense M! But, how does Jesus directly baptizing someone with the actual Spirit contradict baptism by water? Who's baptism is more valid? The Priest acting in the place of Christ? Or Jesus Christ baptising one? I'd say that Jesus baptizing one is a far better and more valid baptism. Besides, He Who makes the rules can add unto the rules. Jesus never closed the rules until He left the earth. He came here to teach us. What He says, goes. If Jesus said to someone right next to you that He would grant them salvation even if they did not believe, who would you be to question who Jesus decided to save with or without baptism. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 20:51:31 GMT -5
Jesus cannot make exceptions, He doesn't contradict Himself. He can't say "you need to be baptized to be Saved", then allow others not to be Saved...that's contraditing Himself. When I say Saved I mean going to Heaven. You don't need to be baptized to accept Jesus into your heart which = going to heaven. Are you kidding? Have you ever heard of the parable of the field workers? A land owner hires men in the beginning of the day, in the middle of the day and at the end of the day to work his field. At the end of the day, he pays all the men the same amount. The first men complain as to how the man who worked the least got the same payment as they who'd been there since the beginning. The land owner told them what do you care, as long as you got what you were promised? Know what the moral fo the story is? Salvation is between God and the saved...we are nobody to judge how one gets to heaven. Water baptism, works or by Jesus' own words. It's whatever Jesus says. Not us. |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 15, 2008 21:13:23 GMT -5
Jesus tells us how one and all can get to heaven. I am not judging by saying those who do not accept Christ are going to hell...I know it's a fact because the Bible says so. There is no way to Heaven except thru Jesus Christ.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 21:28:11 GMT -5
Jesus tells us how one and all can get to heaven. I am not judging by saying those who do not accept Christ are going to hell...I know it's a fact because the Bible says so. There is no way to Heaven except thru Jesus Christ. Read Romans 2. There, you'll see that that's not true. |
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Post by reinabella on Apr 26, 2008 12:28:28 GMT -5
For some reason, i dont believe that you witnesses a priest cussing and drunk.  And since when do protestants think that drinking and smoking is sinful? From what i hear from other protestants, their churchs are not against it. I went to protestant churches all my life and you were NOT allowed to drink or smoke. heck i wasn't even allowed in a movie theatre LOL |
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Post by redsoxfan on Apr 27, 2008 13:08:03 GMT -5
Hey reinabella wanna talk a walk on the wild side? Wanna go see Wally and break all the rules!?!!
LOL Jk =p
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Post by reinabella on Apr 27, 2008 20:05:12 GMT -5
Hey reinabella wanna talk a walk on the wild side? Wanna go see Wally and break all the rules!?!! LOL Jk =p LOL LOL |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 27, 2008 21:18:21 GMT -5
Read Romans 2. There, you'll see that that's not true. What part of Romans 2? The Bible says Jesus is the only way to the Father. Only. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 28, 2008 6:52:55 GMT -5
The Bible says that applies only to those who believe in Jesus (Christians), but for those who don't yet live God's will, they too are reconciled to God by living His Word.
Those who obey God (even if they don't know "of" God) are saved more than those who just believe alone by "how" they live their lives.
For example, take an atheist who feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, cares for the widow, visits the imprisoned...all things that Jesus said must be done for one to be allowed into heaven; will God "not" allow him in just because he didn't believe in Jesus while on earth?
Then take the believer who didn't do any of those things but had faith in Jesus, will they be allowed in heaven even though they were disobedient to Jesus?
Romans 2 (the whole chapter) talks about this, how the one's who brag about having the Law (Jesus) yet don't live according "to" The Law will "not" get into heaven while those who don't have The Law (faith in Christ) yet are good for the sake of being good and not seeking reward will be rewarded with heaven.
It is in the "doing" of The Law that one is justified, not in the believing in The Law.
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 28, 2008 14:40:53 GMT -5
No man is good.
Those who do not have Christ will not see the Father.
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Post by redsoxfan on May 2, 2008 9:42:10 GMT -5
Sounds like KJB's total depravity of man.
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Post by Cepha on May 2, 2008 19:23:04 GMT -5
Nothing God created is bad. |
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