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Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 3, 2008 18:58:53 GMT -5
no..
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Post by emily445455 on May 3, 2008 19:00:39 GMT -5
Ugh, haven't I already given scriptures for Salvation being a gift, not something you have to work for?
Passage Ephesians 2:8-9:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Passage Romans 10:13:
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Passage John 3:16:
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Passage Romans 6:23:
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Crowns:
Crown of Righteousness- 2 Tim 4:8, Given to those who love the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ
Incorruptible Crown- 1 Cor 9:25, Given for temperance or moderation in all things of life
Crown of Rejoicing- 1 Thess 2:19, The soul winner's crown
Crown of Glory- 1 Peter 5:4, The shepherd's crown given to those who pastor people in the Word of God
Crown of Life- Rev 2:10, James 1:12, The martyr's crown, also given to those who endure temptation by dying to self
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2008 19:19:45 GMT -5
M, that's all referring to salvation from original sin.
You comletely disregard one having to "work" out their salvation for the rest of their lives.
They're all the same crown...All those crowns are for one thing...being in heaven. It is being in heaven that is the crown.
You don't actually believe that people walk around with actual crowns on their heads in heaven do you?
If a person meets all those crown requirements, does that mean they have to wear all those crowns?
And finally, how do you connect the "crowns" with rewards?
Is that in The Bible that one gets crowns as a merit system like a kid in kindergarten gets stars?
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Post by emily445455 on May 3, 2008 19:25:32 GMT -5
I believe Christ died for Salvation from sin, once you accept Him you are forgiven and are can get into Heaven.
No, people don't wear their crowns in heaven because they are cast as Jesus's feet.
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2008 19:27:58 GMT -5
I believe Christ died for Salvation from sin, once you accept Him you are forgiven and are can get into Heaven. No, people don't wear their crowns in heaven because they are cast as Jesus's feet. So the Christian pedophile who is unrepentant is allowed into heaven? |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2008 19:29:28 GMT -5
Scripture tieing all your beliefs together?
-Works are to gain crowns in heaven.
-These crowns that one gained from their works are cast at Jesus' feet.
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Post by emily445455 on May 3, 2008 19:29:40 GMT -5
So the Christian pedophile who is unrepentant is allowed into heaven? If he accepted Jesus into his heart and repented, then yes.  |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2008 19:30:58 GMT -5
So the Christian pedophile who is unrepentant is allowed into heaven? If he accepted Jesus into his heart and repented, then yes. That's not what I asked you...I said an unrepentant Christian pedophile. Is he allowed into heaven? |
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Post by emily445455 on May 3, 2008 19:32:14 GMT -5
-Works are to gain crowns in heaven. -These crowns that one gained from their works are cast at Jesus' feet. Exactly. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 3, 2008 19:33:36 GMT -5
That's not what I asked you...I said an unrepentant Christian pedophile. Is he allowed into heaven? If he didn't accept Christ and repent then, no. But I am not judging him, that is not my job. |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2008 19:40:09 GMT -5
That's not what I asked you...I said an unrepentant Christian pedophile. Is he allowed into heaven? If he didn't accept Christ and repent then, no. But I am not judging him, that is not my job. You just contradicted yourself. You said being saved frees one of all their sins (not just original sin only). But now you're saying that not only does one have to believe in Jesus, but they have to actually commit a work? They have to do something to "earn" that salvation after they've been saved by faith alone? They have to ask to be forgiven? Doesn't compute. Besides, demons believe in Jesus and have faith that He is The Messiah...their not saved. |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2008 19:43:32 GMT -5
-Works are to gain crowns in heaven. -These crowns that one gained from their works are cast at Jesus' feet. Exactly. Exactly what? That's your scritural proof that I asked for tieing in all these beliefs? |
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Post by emily445455 on May 3, 2008 19:46:29 GMT -5
Exactly what? That's your scritural proof that I asked for tieing in all these beliefs? I know my pastor went over it in our Rev study, but so far I haven't been able to find it in my notes. |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2008 19:49:40 GMT -5
Exactly what? That's your scritural proof that I asked for tieing in all these beliefs? I know my pastor went over it in our Rev study, but so far I haven't been able to find it in my notes. There you go again...my Pastor this, my Pastor that. That's what happens when you place your faith in what your Pastor teaches you M...since you didn't do the work on your own, you can never answer a question without going to your notes or to your Pastor. Therefore, the faith you have isn't yours, but what you're given by another man. If you were really close to Christ, you wouldn't need a Pastor. Of course, this is the argument for being an anti-Catholic...that you don't need "man" to teach you the word of God, but that very belief is taught by men. Not God. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 3, 2008 19:55:00 GMT -5
I don't need my pastor, I could study the Bible myself and be fine. I'll just stop talking about my pastor then, lol, take credit for all his research myself  |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2008 19:58:38 GMT -5
I don't need my pastor, I could study the Bible myself and be fine. I'll just stop talking about my pastor then, lol, take credit for all his research myself Too late! LOL! The cat's out the bag! LOL! You already said it! Are you going to pull an "Obama" now? LOL! |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 4, 2008 10:29:00 GMT -5
This conversation you two are having just sounds redicules... emily, why would you put all your faith into one person(your pastor) besides Jesus. Think for yourself girl!
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2008 12:14:15 GMT -5
I do put myself in Jesus and HIs Word, Marcie. My pastor preaches sermons using the Bible, like it's on our laps and he points us to Scriptures to help explain the Scripture we are going over that Sunday. So, in the end, we all believe God and His Word, my pastor included.
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Post by knuckle on May 4, 2008 13:20:07 GMT -5
Hi all----------
a friend of mine posted this on his blog----thought you might get something from it
crossing all bounderies in HIS body…a call to duty…
Matt 7:21 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
…………..
lk 17: 5
And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
.………………..
a lot of talk has been going on, both in side of and outside of the church, about change and the need for change ….such talk is electrifying and to hear people speaking out in any group showing they have noticed change is necessary, and they want change should be encouraging to everyone…
but it takes great personal sacrifice and endurance to peacefully create an environment, that naturally produces change…causing it to sprout up quickly out of the ground and it roots to bury themselves deep in the good soil, growing into a tree so beautiful, so strong, that it cannot be toppled over and torn out of the ground when the storm rages against it…
one can be assured the storm will blow hard to destroy the tree, but it will be shown when the sun shines again, that it did nothing more then produce proper moisture for the tree…
and what the storm itself considers harmful to the tree in it‘s effort to damage, will give the tree the drink it needs to grow bigger…to produce *the fruit* of real change…and with such fruit, we can feed the nations…
but to do so takes more than just words…the first group in the first text above, stood before the KING and gave words about there words they spoke on HIS behalf…these were rejected….they offered nothing but lip service about their service…
and then in the second text we see something totally different…and not only so, but we are advised on what we should say during that great hour…
can a servant praise himself as profitable for doing nothing but the job he is told to do?…
if all we have done is our basic duties…do we have reason to boast, just because we did what was required of us?…
to talk a good game is fine…but words in and of themselves are meaningless unless they motivate us into an effort to develop that which they seek…
it is like…it takes considering those with nothing, just as important as ones self, in which we find the right soil for growth…
it is believing the lives of those who, to outward appearances, seem like the least important, means just as much as any other…even our own…
and it is when we can ourselves, as individuals, reach the point of seeing those who suffer as clearly a we see ourselves, that we have become an unstoppable phenomenon…..not only so, but, nothing less will be strong enough to resist the storm that will be created, when we truly decide to grow *the fruit* of equality unpolluted…
it is apparent that it will take a willingness to give beyond the levels of what many would consider unthinkable….to not only stop the looming crisis, but if the determination is strong enough, we can insure such a thing could not happen by the same means again….
i read the above text and i think of when JESUS spoke of a great day, in which everyone who claims HIS name will stand before HIM, and HE said HE will divide them up…the sheep from the goats…and tell the sheep…well done…you have fed ME when I was hungry, clothed ME when I was naked, came to ME when I was sick and in prison…and HE said those sheep will say…”when LORD…when have we done such a thing”…and HE will say…in that you have done it to the least of these, you have done it unto ME…
but to the goats HE says…depart from me…for I was hungry and you did not offer any food…naked and you did not offer any clothes…sick and in prison and you ignored ME…and HE said they will answer HIM…”when LORD…when did you see you hungry and did not feed you, naked and left you so, or sick and in prison and did nothing to comfort you”…and HE said HE will answer…in that you did not do it to the least of these…you did not do it to ME…..
to fed the helpless, the least of us, is our basic duty…
and to my brothers and sisters in the universalist camp…i find my self looking at you …and tell you plainly, while I agree totally in the destination you must examine the path.
if there is any substance to it…if there is truth in your teachings that all will eventually be saved…then i must say from reading the holy scriptures…that i cannot see the possibility of it happening any other way, then those who are among the elect, who are taken from every human tribe under heaven…in love shedding tears for those who stand in judgment and judged as rejecters….and in my eyes it would have to be in the power of sorrow in love…that would run down our eyes for our loved ones who kneel defeated…and HIS desire to see our happiness…and our eyes dried, that HE will wipe away every tear, and moved HIS hand in mercy for us who love HIM, for the sake of those we love…
and in HIS love to serve us…only in that thing so magnificent as humble love…could the unbeliever be finally spared and relieved from his proper reward…and mercy in that instance triumph over judgment…
when JESUS took a child and said, unless you be converted, and become as a child, you will not see GOD’s kingdom, was HE not in fact telling us that is what that holy place is filled with?…and if it is so filled…then when we have children dying of hunger needlessly…inexcusable….are we not then taking what little heaven on earth we have, and putting it through hell?….JESUS asked peter…do you love me…peter replied in the positive…and JESUS said…then feed my sheep…
and to you my brother and sisters in universalism i appeal to you to judge…if in that love…that just punishment which is most deserved may can be possible undone…and if in that same love every tear will be dried…then I ask you, does not that same love require us, when we see suffering now that can be alleviated by our hands, does not that love require us to suffer with those who suffer now…and even if it is true, that the punishment spoken of so often is only for correction and but for a season, long or short…and all partake of it for a season, long or short, as many of you teach…then i ask you plainly…would it not be better…and more convenient and logical…more devout and proper…knowing the wrath of GOD…
to do what we can now, and suffer now with those who suffer now, while and by trying to help them…than to suffer in that day from refusing to suffer now?…i say, as our LORD said, blessed be those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled…
it is our basic duty….
and to the arminians, as well as the catholics, i appeal to you based on your interpretation of scripture….if salvation retained is dependant upon our labor…and upon our doing good when good is required, and working hard when hard work is required….then I ask you, if you see one in need and say, “go be blessed and well fed”, but have done nothing to help the one who is naked or hungry, then what good have we done?…what profit are we now or in eternity….?…
if our GOD requires, which i do believe HE does, for those in HIM to love like HE lived…then what eyes of mercy we should looking through?…what hearts motivated to movement by compassion we should be demonstrating….in this hour which is bearing down on the world, should not the laborers of the harvest, be the first into the fields…to bring in that good harvest for HIS name, and in HIS name, so help us GOD…
can one truly believe, on any side, that if their good deeds bring blessings…and then turn away from offering to help those perishing, they can still count that as holy work?…there is no way such a thing can be…
in the old testament GOD told moses and the rest of the children of abraham, that HE was going to bless them, so that they could be a blessing to the nations around them…if we are too, the children of abraham by faith…and are blessed by GOD because of it…would it not stand that we are blessed for the same purpose…to be a blessing to those in need…to help them in HIS name and for HIS glory, that HIS name may be spread and praised?…
that is our basic duty….
and to all my like minded siblings in in true grace…if it is important that a tree produce *the fruit* that shows what type of tree it is…and if without that good fruit, the tree is worth nothing but to be cut down and tossed into the fire…and if it is true that good work is to believe in the one GOD sent and to love one another….then how can one say they are of the holy VINE, when they do nothing while people die needlessly?….
if reflecting HIS face in ours is what the elect is truly called to, and what we are saved for…then show me in scripture where our LORD saw one dying and did not either do something to help them, or die with them!…i make that challenge to you now…for in reading the holy words of our bible, i saw two groups…the ones who were dying and HE stayed them alive by HIS power…and the ones who where perishing that HE died for and with on the cross…
so in that vein i ask you…if we are so called and elected…isn’t the purpose of the calling to follow where HE leads us?….and isn’t our duty to serve HIM?…and did not our LORD say, if you wished to be great in HIS kingdom, then one must make themselves the servant to all?….we often quote the 23 psalm…and the part of our LORD preparing the table in the presence of our enemies…well if our GOD so prepares for us who could not feed ourselves, so that we may to grow strong into HIM…into that perfect man…should we not prepare the table for those who cannot prepare it for themselves in the presence of that same enemy,…that enemy whose works are darkness?…
is it not required a steward be found faithful?…
that is our basic duty…
when the rich young man came to JESUS and asked what he had to do to be saved…JESUS told HIM something about the commandments…the young fellow replied he has obeyed those things from his youth up…then our LORD said, but one thing you lack…go and sell all you have, and give it to the poor, and come and follow me…if that was required for that young man, in order to be a follower of JESUS, then it stands that if by doing so he was following JESUS, and that would point out that JESUS must have done the same thing…and so I say, that if we wish to follow our LORD, as HIS elect, it is not inconceivable to think one can do so, knowing others are perishing in hunger, and doing nothing but speaking words, when we can help?…and while HE may not require all of HIS followers to give everything away, still, in this story alone we are taught it takes more than words to show oneself a true follower and believer….as HE left and gave up all so we could be comforted by HIS HOLY SPIRIT, can we not follow such a bold example and sacrifice for a short season to prevent suffering…and to prevent it in HIS holy name?…
is it not our basic duty?…
in 1 john it is written, that our GOOD SHEPHERD came to destroy the works of the devil….to make them manifest and undo them….
well, siblings if there is any truth to that other than delightful words…other than just to make us feel good…then i ask you to recall with me the story of job…and how the enemy wished for GOD to remove HIS holy hedge from around that great man, so he could attack him…and when the devils desire was granted, the first thing he did was rise up and steal and kill what job had been given…for the devil is a thief and a murderer and has been so from the beginning…and that is his work…to steal and to destroy…
he attacked job’s food supply, his crops and his herds….such is the devils work…and such are the type of works our LORD came to manifest and destroy….and if our LORD came to do this good work, and we are to walk like our LORD walked, and do the work HE did and has called us to do, no matter what camp we place our tents in…then how can we say we teach and proclaim the gospel of peace, and not likewise do the same good work…and destroy the works of satan like we are called to do…like our LORD’s purpose for coming was do to…
this is nothing short of our duty…
it is our of work, no matter which doctrine’s banner we stand under….to preach the name of JESUS…but not just to preach it…to live it…
if we place our hands on this plow…and look back, we are not worthy of the kingdom of GOD…if we take hold to turn the ground in order to produce a crop…and stop and look at what is behind us….and look back to where we were…we are not fit for HIS work…for the field will not be plowed…nor the crops brought in, by looking to the past…but rather, now is the time of GOD’s favor…and in this time we shall work while it is light…before that darkness falls and no one can work in that darkness…
on that great day, when our day is past like that servant who fed HIS master’s cattle and then HIS master as well before eating…and the sun has set on our lives, casting long shadows and our night has moved in….in judgment we will stand before HIM and all we ever did will be shown to us and we will then be able to understand our true motives…and all our works will be laid bear before eternity to witness…
and when we stand before HIS great throne to face our judgment…let us not for a moment say, “LORD, look at all the good things we have said“…for that is the way of the wicked servant….
no children…for those who make such a grand statement trouble surly looms…for their treachery is displayed in their own words declaring their lack of action…of not doing their duty faithfully….
but rather if it is displayed that we gave our all in HIS name, serving HIM with everything we have, by serving our fellowman with our all, feeding them in JESUS’ name,…suffering with those who suffer and mourning wiht those who mourn…if that is shown, then let us in humility speak…and according to the advice of our SAVIOUR, let our only words be thus..
“we are unprofitable servants, for we have only done that which is our duty to do!“…
much love-------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2008 17:30:19 GMT -5
I do put myself in Jesus and HIs Word, Marcie. My pastor preaches sermons using the Bible, like it's on our laps and he points us to Scriptures to help explain the Scripture we are going over that Sunday. So, in the end, we all believe God and His Word, my pastor included. You are being led by the personal interpretation of a man as opposed to a Magisterium (like The Apostles who would gather to discuss what would be preached). You believe what you are taught by him to beleive. Have you ever disagreed with him? If so, have you ever challenged him? Or do you just accept everything he teaches you infallibly? |
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