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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2008 20:14:03 GMT -5
I believe that one of my gifts would be Faith as well. I have always believed in God and have found it so easy to believe in spiritual things. Catholics believe that Faith is a Spiritual Gift too. The Bible teaches us that...that no man comes to The Son unless The Father has led them to The Son, Jesus. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 3, 2008 20:27:49 GMT -5
Negative Emily...being born from a woman is what brings us into the world as sinners in the first place. This is talking about being born "again" with water. Salvation from original sin is a free gift, but we're not given the gift to sin all we want and get away with it without having to do works to be forgiven for our sins. If you steal, you must repay what you stole in order to be forgiven. You can't steal a car, ask God for forgiveness and then keep the car. Try again M.  Repaying what you stole is part of being a good Chrisitan, not for Salvation. God may not be very happy with you, but we will probably all die with sins in our lives that we haven't asked to be forgiven for or repented for. That is what I believe and I'm stickin to it.  |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2008 21:00:25 GMT -5
So being a good Christian is not part of eternal salvation?
A bad Christian can have heaven even if Jesus said that you are supposed to do things to get into heaven?
So you're saying that sinners (unrepentant sinners) get into heaven?
Does that include Muslims?
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2008 21:02:52 GMT -5
M, I think you missed this question:
"Where is your scriptural proof that one doesn't need water to be born again?"
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Post by emily445455 on May 3, 2008 21:19:36 GMT -5
I already gave you verses.
Muslims do not believe Jesus is God, so no, they will not be in Heaven.
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2008 22:08:40 GMT -5
I already gave you verses. Muslims do not believe Jesus is God, so no, they will not be in Heaven. None of the verses you provided stated that one doesn't need water to be baptized. But Jesus said that you do. Which one should a Christian follow? The versess that don't say that one doesn't need water to be baptized? Or the verse where Jesus literally said that one must be baptized of water to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2008 22:09:39 GMT -5
By the way...here's what the Bible teaches about being baptized in water as Jesus commanded we are to be...
Born Again in Water Baptism
John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.
John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).
John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.
John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.
Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.
Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.
Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.
Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.
Heb. 10:22 – the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.
2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.
Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2008 22:11:55 GMT -5
I already gave you verses. Muslims do not believe Jesus is God, so no, they will not be in Heaven. Romans 2 teaches us that non-believers don't have to believe in Jesus if they live God's will. They will be justified to God by how they live His Word that's written in their hearts. Romans 2:25-29 25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision. 26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision? 27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2008 8:02:55 GMT -5
None of those verses say it is necessary to be baptized by water to be Saved and reach Heaven, they just talk about how it is important, which I agree, it is very important.
Romans 2 is talking about people who are already Saved, not those who are Lost. Following the rules is pointless if you do not have Christ, that's what it was saying. When the Bible said the ONLY way to the Father is thru the Son, it meant, the ONLY way.
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2008 10:12:02 GMT -5
John 3:5
Jesus answered,
"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."
Again, you disagree with Jesus. In order to be born again (saved) a Christian believer HAS TO be born of both water and of Spirit. Not just of The Spirit.
And you still haven't listed one scripture that states that water is not neccessary for being born again (as Jesus says it is).
Your text completely contradicts Christ's words.
Compare them:
Jesus says:
"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."
Emilly says:
Water is not neccessary to be born again and saved.
Two contradictory beliefs.
Who's wrong M? You or Jesus?
Negative. Take Romans 2 in context to Romans 1 and Romans 3. He is talking about all mankind.
Remember, there were no actual numbers in The Bible (chapters & verses) until The Catholic Church put them there. Teachings are not divided by numbers. One teaching could go on for several chapter or be less than a chapter.
Context M. Context. Compare what you just said with Romans 1 & 3 and you will see that you are wrong.
He is addressing Believers and comparing them to non-Believers and telling them how non-Believers will be justified to God who live His will and Believers who don't follow His will will be less than them.
And...it is not for the sake of Christ that one comes to Christ, but for the sake of God. If one has God, they've already reached the goal.
We aren't Christians to worship Christ before God, but we are Christians as a vessel to get to God the Father. Even Jesus worships His Father.
Christ doesnt' come before God. If you are a Christian, it's only because it was God Who brought you to Jesus.
One doesn't get to Jesus without God first.
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2008 12:08:31 GMT -5
That verse is not talking about water baptism, it just says "water".
The Bible says Jesus is the ONLY way to God, I believe that with all my heart.
This is getting dull...
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2008 17:12:45 GMT -5
M, it's talking about being "born again" M.
M...there is only one kind of being "born" again.
There are no multiple "born agains".
It's not being "born again & again & again & again...".
One is only born again throug baptism.
If you discount water from baptism because of this verse, then you also have to discount The Holy Spirit too because of this verse.
By the way, you still haven't quoted me one scripture that states that one could be baptized without water.
You could do that right now: [ Insert quote here... ]
The Bible says that Jesus is the only way to God for Believers.
It doesn't mention other ways to God for non-Believers. If it does exclude non-Believers, by all mean...quote the scripture.
I'm sure it is...but that's because you keep running into me asking you to provide the scripture for your belief that one doesn't have to be born again as Jesus stated one must be born again.
You could've stopped this long ago by simply posting the scripture that supports your belief instead of denying Christ's words.
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2008 17:15:24 GMT -5
You said that it was talking about being born of a woman?
No...Jesus was confronted with this when He was asked if a man can re-enter his mother's womb. Jesus said no.
It's about being born "again"...not being "born" the first time from one's mother.
By the way M...you have to be born again to be saved and to get to heaven.
Jesus says that to be born again, you have to be born again of water and of The Holy Spirit.
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2008 20:51:09 GMT -5
I have posted Scripture...you just choose not to believe it or twist it around to mean something else.
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2008 21:25:50 GMT -5
I have posted Scripture...you just choose not to believe it or twist it around to mean something else. You never posted scriptures contradicting what Jesus Christ said. Never. Think about it...if you had, all you had to do was post them again instead of saying that you posted them. Since you didn't post them in the first place, you couldn't post them again...especially since no where in The Holy Bible, The Word of God is it taught that water is "not" needed to be born again. And that's why Jesus says that unless you are born again of water and of The Holy Spirit, you will not enter The Kingdom of Heaven. Your beliefs are not only unBiblical, but their anti-Christian. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2008 21:52:39 GMT -5
Romans 5:15 (Whole Chapter)
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Romans 5:16 (Whole Chapter)
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Romans 5:18 (Whole Chapter)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2008 22:03:57 GMT -5
Romans 5:15 (Whole Chapter) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Romans 5:16 (Whole Chapter) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. Romans 5:18 (Whole Chapter) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Not one of those scriptures undoes what Jesus taught. Not one verse in the whole Chapter, the Chapter before or the Chapter after Romans 5 state that one can be born again without water. On top of all of that, Jesus was referring to previous scriptures when He said that unless you are born again of water and of The Holy Spirit, you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Ezekiel 36:25-27 25"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. Ephesians 5:26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, |
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2008 22:10:13 GMT -5
But instead of just taking verses out of Romans 5, let's take the entire Chapter so that there won't be any confusion and see if we can find any verse that states that one doesn't need to obey Jesus' words when He said that unless one is born of water and of The Holy Spirit, they cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven:
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Romans 5
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Nope...still no verse that states that what Jesus taught is not required to be born again.
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2008 22:23:25 GMT -5
Romans 5:15 (Whole Chapter) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Romans 5:16 (Whole Chapter) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. Romans 5:18 (Whole Chapter) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. In fact, Romans 6 talks about being "baptized". To be baptized means to be immersed in water. Baptizo bap-tid'-zo 1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk) 2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe 3. to overwhelm Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? If you want to use the modern English and "not" the ancient Biblical Greek, then: bap·tize –verb (used with object) 1. to immerse in water or sprinkle or pour water on in the Christian rite of baptism: They baptized the new baby. 2. to cleanse spiritually; initiate or dedicate by purifying. 3. to give a name to at baptism; christen. –verb (used without object) 4. to administer baptism. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2008 22:36:29 GMT -5
I understand water baptism is important. But the gift of Salvation is just that...a gift.
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