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Post by Cepha on May 9, 2008 20:21:25 GMT -5
What is the LDS position on The Great Apostasy?
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Post by lorraine on May 9, 2008 20:47:30 GMT -5
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is believed, by its members, to be a restoration of the original Church of Jesus Christ. Not a reformation, like the Protestants, but a restoration of priesthood authority and keys.
We believe that after Jesus' death and the death of the apostles, there was a falling away, that is, a gradual altering of the true church. We believe that the priesthood authority was slowly lost, and some of the practices and doctrines were changed by men. Hence the need for a complete restoration from God Himself.
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Post by Cepha on May 9, 2008 21:02:12 GMT -5
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is believed, by its members, to be a restoration of the original Church of Jesus Christ. Not a reformation, like the Protestants, but a restoration of priesthood authority and keys. We believe that after Jesus' death and the death of the apostles, there was a falling away, that is, a gradual altering of the true church. We believe that the priesthood authority was slowly lost, and some of the practices and doctrines were changed by men. Hence the need for a complete restoration from God Himself. In other words, until The LDS came along, "the gates of hell" had prevailed over Jesus' Church? |
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Post by lorraine on May 9, 2008 21:19:21 GMT -5
Oh, I see where you're going.....
The church wasn't completely gone, but the man made creeds had replaced revelation from God.
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Post by Cepha on May 10, 2008 5:01:41 GMT -5
Oh, I see where you're going..... The church wasn't completely gone, but the man made creeds had replaced revelation from God. So The Church dissappeared first? What was it that brought down The Church first? How did evil overcome Jesus' work?  |
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Post by redsoxfan on May 10, 2008 22:17:03 GMT -5
As far as I know only the LDS and the Catholics are the only one who say thier Church is definitively THE Church God created. The topic of the Great Apostacy is most important because it would be the death blow to either one.
My question is this. Is it explained why God did not talk to humanity since the end of the good people in the Americas? Why leave mankind in the dark?
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Post by lorraine on May 11, 2008 17:40:10 GMT -5
As far as I know only the LDS and the Catholics are the only one who say thier Church is definitively THE Church God created. The topic of the Great Apostacy is most important because it would be the death blow to either one. My question is this. Is it explained why God did not talk to humanity since the end of the good people in the Americas? Why leave mankind in the dark? Do you mean since the end of the Book of Mormon? God still speaks today through his prophets. |
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Post by redsoxfan on May 12, 2008 11:36:01 GMT -5
No, I'm talking about the gap that would have occured after the good tribe, not the lamanites, died out but before the book of mormon. Then I also wonder if the rest of the world was left in the dark so to speak after St. John died at the end of the first century AD. Til mormons could start converting them 1700+ years later?
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Post by lorraine on May 12, 2008 17:03:04 GMT -5
No, I'm talking about the gap that would have occured after the good tribe, not the lamanites, died out but before the book of mormon. Then I also wonder if the rest of the world was left in the dark so to speak after St. John died at the end of the first century AD. Til mormons could start converting them 1700+ years later? There wasn't complete darkness...the restoration of the full gospel, with all the priesthood keys was in the Lord's time. There were many Christians on earth during this time, and God was with them then as He is today. |
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Post by lorraine on May 12, 2008 17:13:03 GMT -5
Matthew 16:15-19
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
And I say also unto thee. That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Many people will say that an apostasy is impossible because of what Jesus said to Peter - upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Does this mean that the church would stay true and not apostasize?
To start off - what is "the rock" on which Jesus built His church?
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Post by Cepha on May 12, 2008 18:33:01 GMT -5
Matthew 16:15-19 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee. That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Many people will say that an apostasy is impossible because of what Jesus said to Peter - upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Does this mean that the church would stay true and not apostasize? To start off - what is "the rock" on which Jesus built His church? Here, Jesus is surely addressing all The Apostles. Only Peter responds. Since only Peter responds, Jesus addresses only Peter and He only called Peter "rock" (He didn't call all of the Disciples "rocks" because none of them answered). God only chose Peter to reveal Who Jesus was. God didn't choose the other Disciples to give His revelation to. Another proof that Jesus was addressing Peter, it says "And Jesus answered and said unto him...", not them or all of them or everybody, but only " unto him"; Peter. Here, Jesus tells Peter that his answer didn't come from any man, but from God The Father. This isn't Peter's revelation (it didn't come from him, he is just a man of flesh and blood). It's God's revelation to Peter. And He is still only talking to Peter. Here, Jesus changes Simon's name to "rock" and tells him that He will build His Church upon him. Hell will not corrupt The Church. "And"...While talking to Peter and Peter only, He connects the two sentiments with an "And". Jesus says that He will give "thee" the Keys. Thee is a singular word meaning "the objective case of thou". One singular person, not a group of men or the world or anybody but the person being addressed. He was talking to Peter when He said this only. Notice, Jesus says "I will give you" (not you all or all of you) while talking to Peter who He refers to in the singular " thou" (American Heritage Dictionary/ thou Used to indicate the one being addressed, especially in a literary, liturgical, or devotional context.). Now, the text of scripture says "Then...". This word "Then" separates the two conversations. He was talking to Peter first, "then" He talked to the Disciples. |
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Post by Cepha on May 12, 2008 18:35:37 GMT -5
Jesus clearly said the following (this is from the Aramaic Language Bible) "literally":
Matthew 16:18
"I am also telling you that you are the Rock and on this rock I am building my Church, and the doors of sheol cannot draw it in."
Jesus didn't say "little rock" or "fragment of a rock". Jesus just said one word..."rock". And He didn't even say "Peter"...He said "Cephas" (or, just plain old rock).
My native born Greek friend cleared this all up for me when she explained what petros means.
If you do a search of the words petras/petrus online at the various Greek translation dictionaries, you will find that they don't exist in the first century. Therefore, Jesus couldn't have used words that didn't exist (as the whole language of modern Greek didnt' exist) at His time.
Of course, if you can prove that Jesus used modern Greek and not Koine Greek or Aramaic when He spoke, then you'd blow my proofs out of the water and history would be wrong.
So, now that we've established that Jesus didn't use modern Greek or even Koine Greek, but Aramaic to talk to Peter, then that leaves us with only one possible assertion...
Jesus called Simon "rock". This "rock" would go on to be the foundation of His house (Church) as He states there, in Matthew 7 and as Ephesians 2:20 states that The Apostles (of which Peter is the head) and The Prophets are the foundation of The Church (or Christs Church).
Jesus is called the corner or capstone of The Church (the visible part of the structure while the rest of the foundation is buried in soil). The cap/cornerstone on a building or structure is the one that has the information of the building on it (usually, it's builder's name and date). The foundation is buried in the soil and has no where near the prominence of the corner/capstone. Of course, we know that man is made up of what? Soil. It's proper for the men upon whom The Church is built upon are where they belong...from soil they came, back to soil they go while Jesus is shown "above" them where He belongs.
The Cap/Cornerstone goes "on top" of The Foundation (not "under" the foundation).
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Post by lorraine on May 13, 2008 10:36:10 GMT -5
I had wanted to start out slowly, it is difficult to address so much at once.....oh well. I will post the long version of what I believe later.
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Post by redsoxfan on May 13, 2008 11:09:38 GMT -5
No, I'm talking about the gap that would have occured after the good tribe, not the lamanites, died out but before the book of mormon. Then I also wonder if the rest of the world was left in the dark so to speak after St. John died at the end of the first century AD. Til mormons could start converting them 1700+ years later? There wasn't complete darkness...the restoration of the full gospel, with all the priesthood keys was in the Lord's time. There were many Christians on earth during this time, and God was with them then as He is today. I know what you are saying, so I should clarify what I am asking. I know God writes in all our hearts what is right and what is wrong etc. But during that 1700 year time period there would have been no on in direct communication (like the prophets in the OT were) with God like a prophet until Joseph Smith Jr. I have a hard time accepting that there wouldn't have been any direct prophet, or major prophet that spoke for God on a national or international scene. |
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Post by redsoxfan on May 13, 2008 11:12:17 GMT -5
I had wanted to start out slowly, it is difficult to address so much at once.....oh well. I will post the long version of what I believe later. I'll just ask later. I don't want you to feel like we're putting to much on your plate. Take care~RSF |
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Post by righteousone on May 13, 2008 19:13:34 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but the LDS is a cult that exposes children to have sex with adults, and boys are being abused. Jesus had put a stop to this when they raided the ranch because I believe Jesus was offended with these 'false' practices.
When will you wake up here? It is brainwashing and nothing more.
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Post by lorraine on May 13, 2008 20:55:43 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but the LDS is a cult that exposes children to have sex with adults, and boys are being abused. Jesus had put a stop to this when they raided the ranch because I believe Jesus was offended with these 'false' practices. When will you wake up here? It is brainwashing and nothing more. You are very confused. The FLDS church is not part of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The LDS Church excommunicates anyone practicing polygamy. The people involved in the FLDS raid in Texas are not members of the Mormon Church, and many never were. |
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Post by Cepha on May 13, 2008 21:34:22 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but the LDS is a cult that exposes children to have sex with adults, and boys are being abused. Jesus had put a stop to this when they raided the ranch because I believe Jesus was offended with these 'false' practices. When will you wake up here? It is brainwashing and nothing more. You should study up on that. Comparing LDS to the sect you're talking about is like comparing The Catholic Church to the sect that broke off from The Catholic Church that calls themselves "Traditionalist Catholics". Same deal...they are outside of The Catholic Church, but they claim the name "Catholic". The sect in Texas is not LDS. |
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Post by redsoxfan on May 14, 2008 23:04:51 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but the LDS is a cult that exposes children to have sex with adults, and boys are being abused. Jesus had put a stop to this when they raided the ranch because I believe Jesus was offended with these 'false' practices. When will you wake up here? It is brainwashing and nothing more. That group in texas is not true LDS. |
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Post by lorraine on May 15, 2008 11:41:08 GMT -5
I will try to post on the apostasy soon, I am out of town and have limited net access.
Looking forward to discussion....
and thanks for all the replies lately, it is appreciated
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