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Post by Cepha on Jun 12, 2009 15:28:31 GMT -5
I'm home.... and I'm far away from Rome. I'm Home....and I'm far away from Methodisms....far far away from heresies! LOL ;D In IC.XC, Ramon I'm home and Rome is with me where ever I go! LOL! "Rome, Rome on the range! Where the deer and the antelop play! Where seldom is heard, a discouraging word and the clouds are not cloudy all day!" LOL! |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 13, 2009 8:31:23 GMT -5
I'm home.... and I'm far away from Rome. Yes. It's good to be home, but we should not so easily forget the homes & heritage of our parents, grandparents, on and on back in time. Exactly. Christian history didn't begin in the 16th Century. It amazes me how many non-Catholic Christians are ignorant (not said as an insult, but in the factual nuetral sense) of Christian history. They are not allowed to study Christian history. They are indoctrinated with why they shouldn't be Catholic, but are never told about what happened before 1535. If they were told, or at least, if they were allowed to research this for themselves, they'd find out a lot of disturbing facts about the foundation of Protestantism. Not only that, they'd have to abandon The Holy Bible since it is a product of The Catholic Church. I'm not saying one cannot be a Protestant if they are a Christian. A Christian can certainly be a Protestant if they want to. But I'd think it would be better if they knew "why" they were not Catholic.  |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 13, 2009 14:11:37 GMT -5
That was me exactly! Except I was told about a few things that happened before 1535 and of course, they were only bad things about people who claimed to be Catholic.
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Post by alfie on Jun 13, 2009 15:53:27 GMT -5
Medieval Sourcebook:
Raimon de Cornet (14th cent. troubadour):
Poem Criticizing the Avignon Papacy
I see the pope his sacred trust betray,
For while the rich his grace can gain alway,
His favors from the poor are aye withholden.
He strives to gather wealth as best he may,
Forcing Christ's people blindly to obey,
So that he may repose in garmets golden.
The vilest traffickers in souls are all
His chapmen, and for gold a prebend's stall
He'll sell them, or an abbacy or miter.
And to us he sends clowns and tramps who crawl
Vending his pardon briefs from cot to hall--
Letters and pardons worthy of the writer,
Which leaves our pokes, if not our souls, the lighter.
No better is each honored cardinal.
From early morning's dawn to evening's fall,
Their time is passed in eagerly contriving
To drive some bargain foul with each and all.
So if you feel a want, or great or small,
Or if for some perferment you are striving,
The more you please to give the more 't will bring,
Be it a purple cap or bishop's ring.
And it need ne'er in any way alarm you
That you are ignorant of everything
To which a minister of Christ should cling,
You will have revenue enough to warm you--
And, bear in mind, the lesser gifts won't harm you.
Our bishops, too, are plunged in similar sin,
For pitilessly they flay the very skin
From all their priests who chance to have fat livings.
For gold their seal official you can win
To any writ, no matter what's therein.
Sure God alone can make them stop their theivings,
'T were hard, in full, their evil works to tell,
As when, for a few pence, they greedily sell
The tonsure to some montebank or jester,
Whereby the temporal courts are wronged as well,
For then these tonsured rogues they cannot quell,
Howe'er their scampish doings may us pester,
While round the church still growing evils fester.
________________________________________
Source.
from J. H. Robinson, Readings in European History (Boston: 1904), pp. 375-377
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 13, 2009 19:58:00 GMT -5
My brother is a poet, a really good one.
Do you like poetry Alfie?
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Post by mrstain on Jun 13, 2009 21:22:45 GMT -5
That was me exactly! Except I was told about a few things that happened before 1535 and of course, they were only bad things about people who claimed to be Catholic. Yeah, that is one thing many fundamentalists & the immoral media (hollywood, etc.) have in common -- a disdain for the ancient Catholic faith. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 14, 2009 12:15:50 GMT -5
That was me exactly! Except I was told about a few things that happened before 1535 and of course, they were only bad things about people who claimed to be Catholic. Exactly, the only time that history "counts" before 1535, is when it benefits their agenda (to create their own church). But when history disagrees with what they profess, then history is wrong. It's like a theological dictatorship...religious totalitarianism. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 14, 2009 12:29:19 GMT -5
Medieval Sourcebook: Raimon de Cornet (14th cent. troubadour): Poem Criticizing the Avignon Papacy I see the pope his sacred trust betray, For while the rich his grace can gain alway, His favors from the poor are aye withholden. He strives to gather wealth as best he may, Forcing Christ's people blindly to obey, So that he may repose in garmets golden. The vilest traffickers in souls are all His chapmen, and for gold a prebend's stall He'll sell them, or an abbacy or miter. And to us he sends clowns and tramps who crawl Vending his pardon briefs from cot to hall-- Letters and pardons worthy of the writer, Which leaves our pokes, if not our souls, the lighter. No better is each honored cardinal. From early morning's dawn to evening's fall, Their time is passed in eagerly contriving To drive some bargain foul with each and all. So if you feel a want, or great or small, Or if for some perferment you are striving, The more you please to give the more 't will bring, Be it a purple cap or bishop's ring. And it need ne'er in any way alarm you That you are ignorant of everything To which a minister of Christ should cling, You will have revenue enough to warm you-- And, bear in mind, the lesser gifts won't harm you. Our bishops, too, are plunged in similar sin, For pitilessly they flay the very skin From all their priests who chance to have fat livings. For gold their seal official you can win To any writ, no matter what's therein. Sure God alone can make them stop their theivings, 'T were hard, in full, their evil works to tell, As when, for a few pence, they greedily sell The tonsure to some montebank or jester, Whereby the temporal courts are wronged as well, For then these tonsured rogues they cannot quell, Howe'er their scampish doings may us pester, While round the church still growing evils fester. ________________________________________ Source. from J. H. Robinson, Readings in European History (Boston: 1904), pp. 375-377 Martin Luther on Schism Wednesday, July 05, 2006 by Taylor Marshall | E-mail this post "I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity . . .
That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted . . .
It is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better."Martin Luther, Letter to Pope Leo X
January 6, 1519Mind you that Luther posted the 95 Theses on October 31 of 1517. The statement above is therefore about one year and two months after his posting of the famous objections. This showes that even over a year after the Wittenburg incident, Luther still saw himself as a Roman Catholic opposed to schism. cantuar.blogspot.com/2006/07/martin-luther-on-schism.htmlAny questions? |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 14, 2009 19:05:13 GMT -5
Since when are poems considered "history"?
Yikes, if 500 years from now someone picked up one of my brother's poems and took it as historical fact, that would be amuzing.
Alfie, if you want to try to find, "historical" anti-catholic stuff, at least find something besides a poem.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 14, 2009 19:05:51 GMT -5
How about some quotes from Martin Luther's last book Alfie?
It's called "On The Jews and their Lies".
This is a tread about Martin Luther isn't it? He is no hero of mine, nor any of my Jewish friends.
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Post by alfie on Jun 22, 2009 18:09:52 GMT -5
Yes. It's good to be home, but we should not so easily forget the homes & heritage of our parents, grandparents, on and on back in time. Exactly. Christian history didn't begin in the 16th Century. It amazes me how many non-Catholic Christians are ignorant (not said as an insult, but in the factual nuetral sense) of Christian history. They are not allowed to study Christian history. They are indoctrinated with why they shouldn't be Catholic, but are never told about what happened before 1535. If they were told, or at least, if they were allowed to research this for themselves, they'd find out a lot of disturbing facts about the foundation of Protestantism. Not only that, they'd have to abandon The Holy Bible since it is a product of The Catholic Church. I'm not saying one cannot be a Protestant if they are a Christian. A Christian can certainly be a Protestant if they want to. But I'd think it would be better if they knew "why" they were not Catholic. Read a book called A Distant Mirror-The Calamitous 14th Century by Barbara W. Tuchman. If you do read it and are an honest man like you claim you will be glad that the Reformers came along. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 22, 2009 19:37:56 GMT -5
The fact is that there were Catholics who were abusing their office. Same thing happens in any church or religious group. There are wolves among the sheep, and the Bible says so. But the Bible never says to rebel against the authorities that God has established, esp. the Church.
A "reform" is supposed to be about "expelling the evil doers from among you" not about completely changing that religious beliefs, doctrines and practices. Then it isn't really reform, it is just starting a new religion.
The same thing happened in Judaism--centuries after the Temple was destroyed and there was no longer and sacrificing of animals there, there evolved different factions that delt with this issue.
Now there are "Reform" Jews, Conservative Jews and Orthodox Jews and others.
The problem for them is that it is no longer possible to follow all the 613 commands of Judaism (yes there are more than 10). So the only thing they could do was basically reinterpret the Old Testament.
But, God didn't abolish the daily sacrifice at all because Jesus said that "whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kindom of heaven".
God doesn't command something and then not allow it to be obeyed.
"Now implore God to be gracious to us. With such offerings from your hands, will he accept you?"-says the LORD Almighty.
10 "Oh, that one of you would shut the temple doors, so that you would not light useless fires on my altar! I am not pleased with you," says the LORD Almighty, "and I will accept no offering from your hands. 11 My name will be great among the nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name, because my name will be great among the nations," says the LORD Almighty.
12 "But you profane it by saying of the Lord's table, 'It is defiled,' and of its food, 'It is contemptible.' 13 And you say, 'What a burden!' and you sniff at it contemptuously," says the LORD Almighty.
Malachi 1
Notice that this prophecy says that there will be pure offerings "in every place".
Even if the Temple was rebuilt tomorrow and they made offerings, it can never fulfill this prophecy. Jesus is the only "pure offering".
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Post by alfie on Jun 22, 2009 20:47:12 GMT -5
The fact is that there were Catholics who were abusing their office. Same thing happens in any church or religious group. There are wolves among the sheep, and the Bible says so. But the Bible never says to rebel against the authorities that God has established, esp. the Church. A "reform" is supposed to be about "expelling the evil doers from among you" not about completely changing that religious beliefs, doctrines and practices. Then it isn't really reform, it is just starting a new religion. The same thing happened in Judaism--centuries after the Temple was destroyed and there was no longer and sacrificing of animals there, there evolved different factions that delt with this issue. Now there are "Reform" Jews, Conservative Jews and Orthodox Jews and others. The problem for them is that it is no longer possible to follow all the 613 commands of Judaism (yes there are more than 10). So the only thing they could do was basically reinterpret the Old Testament. But, God didn't abolish the daily sacrifice at all because Jesus said that "whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kindom of heaven". God doesn't command something and then not allow it to be obeyed. "Now implore God to be gracious to us. With such offerings from your hands, will he accept you?"-says the LORD Almighty. 10 "Oh, that one of you would shut the temple doors, so that you would not light useless fires on my altar! I am not pleased with you," says the LORD Almighty, "and I will accept no offering from your hands. 11 My name will be great among the nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name, because my name will be great among the nations," says the LORD Almighty. 12 "But you profane it by saying of the Lord's table, 'It is defiled,' and of its food, 'It is contemptible.' 13 And you say, 'What a burden!' and you sniff at it contemptuously," says the LORD Almighty. Malachi 1 Notice that this prophecy says that there will be pure offerings "in every place". Even if the Temple was rebuilt tomorrow and they made offerings, it can never fulfill this prophecy. Jesus is the only "pure offering". How do you reform a church that threatens to kill you? The Jews took the 10 commandments and ended up with 613 commands because they turned their faith into a works based religion. Same thing with Catholicism. They have added laws that God never intended. I really believe that God replaced the Catholic Church because it had become so evil. Evil is the only word to describe what went on. The same thing happened in Noahs time when God sent a flood to destroy and replace all of the evil people. God then started over with Noah's family. By the way the Catholic Church eventually did clean up it's act and reform. Now if it could only clean up it's false doctrine. |
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Post by mrstain on Jun 22, 2009 20:47:36 GMT -5
The fact is that there were Catholics who were abusing their office. Same thing happens in any church or religious group. There are wolves among the sheep, and the Bible says so. But the Bible never says to rebel against the authorities that God has established, esp. the Church. A "reform" is supposed to be about "expelling the evil doers from among you" not about completely changing that religious beliefs, doctrines and practices. Then it isn't really reform, it is just starting a new religion. The same thing happened in Judaism--centuries after the Temple was destroyed and there was no longer and sacrificing of animals there, there evolved different factions that delt with this issue. Now there are "Reform" Jews, Conservative Jews and Orthodox Jews and others. The problem for them is that it is no longer possible to follow all the 613 commands of Judaism (yes there are more than 10). So the only thing they could do was basically reinterpret the Old Testament. But, God didn't abolish the daily sacrifice at all because Jesus said that "whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kindom of heaven". God doesn't command something and then not allow it to be obeyed. "Now implore God to be gracious to us. With such offerings from your hands, will he accept you?"-says the LORD Almighty. 10 "Oh, that one of you would shut the temple doors, so that you would not light useless fires on my altar! I am not pleased with you," says the LORD Almighty, "and I will accept no offering from your hands. 11 My name will be great among the nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name, because my name will be great among the nations," says the LORD Almighty. 12 "But you profane it by saying of the Lord's table, 'It is defiled,' and of its food, 'It is contemptible.' 13 And you say, 'What a burden!' and you sniff at it contemptuously," says the LORD Almighty. Malachi 1 Notice that this prophecy says that there will be pure offerings "in every place". Even if the Temple was rebuilt tomorrow and they made offerings, it can never fulfill this prophecy. Jesus is the only "pure offering". Great post! Now it is the Catholic Church who offers the pure sacrifice -- the Eucharist -- from the from the rising to the setting of the sun and in every place. Thanks be to God! |
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Post by mrstain on Jun 22, 2009 20:54:18 GMT -5
How do you reform a church that threatens to kill you? The Jews took the 10 commandments and ended up with 613 commands because they turned their faith into a works based religion. Same thing with Catholicism. They have added laws that God never intended. I really believe that God replaced the Catholic Church because it had become so evil. Evil is the only word to describe what went on. The same thing happened in Noahs time when God sent a flood to destroy and replace all of the evil people. God then started over with Noah's family. By the way the Catholic Church eventually did clean up it's act and reform. Now if it could only clean up it's false doctrine. Nice try! I'm pretty sure we've already shown you in this thread where the protestant reformers -- the founders of your Church -- believed in doctrines you yourself would claim to be false. Might as well form your own denomination. Anyway, God did not replace the Church. Jesus said he would be with His Church always and that His Church would even stand against the gates of Hades. To believe otherwise is to go against the words of our Lord. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 22, 2009 23:41:20 GMT -5
So you agree that the Catholic Church is the original Church?
Amen!
Except the problem is that if you believe that the Church had "become so evil", then you have to totally ignore what Jesus said about the Church.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.Matthew 16:18
You can believe that the Church somehow "became evil", that is your free choice and I respect your right to believe that. But you can't believe that the Church "became evil" and at the same time believe what Jesus said about His Church. They both cannot be true. So you have to make a decision about who you want to believe--Jesus, or other peoples opinions about what happened in 16th century Europe.
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 23, 2009 9:33:17 GMT -5
I believe the CC probably started out as a good Christian church. And it is not the church Jesus was referring to.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 23, 2009 9:47:14 GMT -5
Read a book called A Distant Mirror-The Calamitous 14th Century by Barbara W. Tuchman. If you do read it and are an honest man like you claim you will be glad that the Reformers came along. Sorry, but Christian history didn't "begin" in the 14th Century. It began with Christ. Why would I start there? And, I am an honest man when it comes to my faith and I know this, The Reformers failed. Their goal wasn't to create new denominations of Christianity, but to "re-form" The Catholic Church that they were members of. How could I be glad that they failed and created a "new" version of The Holy Bible and started their own religions and made themselves "popes" (religious leaders) of their own churches named after men and places (Church of England, Lutherism, etc...)?  |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 23, 2009 10:46:44 GMT -5
How do you reform a church that threatens to kill you? Which church did that? Where? So by saying that God replaced The Catholic Church, you mean that at one time it was validly God's Church at one time? Then that would totally undo what Christ said (that His Church would not become corrpted). Right? And, how did "it" become evil? Name "acts" that prove that the Catholic Church is evil. Be specific. ;D Now I'm confused. You say "it" re-formed itself? Do you mean what's known as The Counter Reformation? LOL! If anything, The Church suffered in the 1500's because during The Dark Ages, it lost 2/3's of it's clergy to The Black Plague. Know why? Because only The Catholic Church was serving the poor and dieing while secular leaders were abandoning them. And...there were NO Protestants to contribute their lives to serving the poor and sick. So, only The Catholic Church lost most of it's clergy. Thus, men were put into those positions to fill them up, but these "men" were corruptable (not The Church because nothing Christ founds is corruptable) and it was GOD who wiped them out of The Church. The Church didn't reform itself. God undid what man tried to do (Lucifer's infiltration, The Reformation attempt, failed). How did The Church regain her strength? By becomming even MORE Catholic! LOL! Alfie, where exactly do you get your history from? It's like literally backwards "on-purpose". You really need to understand exactly "what" happened "before" The Reformation failed to "re-form" The Church. Study history. I won't tell you "what" to study exactly (I'll let you read that on your own so that you can't blame me for misguiding you). But just take some time and without fear, read history and see exactly "what" happened that led to The Reformation attempt and what The Reformation actually resulted in achieving. Don't listen to me or to any Anti- or Pro- Catholic/Protestant sites. If you are sure you're 100% correct, then you should have absolutely no fear in doing your own research and asking God to guide you. Mark my words, you will be "surprised by truth".  But! I look forward to your answers to my questions. Oh, and how do you feel about your church's founder and his "Catholic" beliefs? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 23, 2009 10:47:54 GMT -5
How do you reform a church that threatens to kill you? The Jews took the 10 commandments and ended up with 613 commands because they turned their faith into a works based religion. Same thing with Catholicism. They have added laws that God never intended. I really believe that God replaced the Catholic Church because it had become so evil. Evil is the only word to describe what went on. The same thing happened in Noahs time when God sent a flood to destroy and replace all of the evil people. God then started over with Noah's family. By the way the Catholic Church eventually did clean up it's act and reform. Now if it could only clean up it's false doctrine. Nice try! I'm pretty sure we've already shown you in this thread where the protestant reformers -- the founders of your Church -- believed in doctrines you yourself would claim to be false. Might as well form your own denomination. Anyway, God did not replace the Church. Jesus said he would be with His Church always and that His Church would even stand against the gates of Hades. To believe otherwise is to go against the words of our Lord. "They" believe that man can overrule Jesus Christ somehow and corrupt His Church.  |
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