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Post by Cepha on Apr 2, 2009 23:13:02 GMT -5
I went to that link and figured out nothing. What O.T. books are in the Septuagint that are not in the current O.T.? You mean, you didn't read this part in that link? Vaticanus originally contained a complete copy of the Septuagint ("LXX") except for 1-4 Maccabees and the Prayer of Manasseh.
The order of the Old Testament books is as follows: Genesis to 2 Chronicles as normal, 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras (Ezra-Nehemiah), the Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Job, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Esther, Judith, Tobit, the minor prophets from Hosea to Malachi, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, Lamentations and the Epistle of Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel.
The books listed there are not in all bibles today. You'll only find them in "canonized" Bibles and only The Catholic Church has a canonized Bible. Denominational Christians don't hold those books as canonical because of their Catholic teachings. Now, take the number of books there that appear in the world's oldest physical Bible (including the first two that appear in the Septuagint, but that aren't in this particular Codex) and what do you get? 7 Books that Protestants said never existed in Christian Bibles. It's about then that I ask them to show me one bible that existed before the 16th Century that only had 66 books. Of course, they cannot provide evidence because no such book existed until the 16th Century. |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 6, 2009 17:40:36 GMT -5
Protestants deleted those books from their Bibles over 1000 years after they were accepted by the Church.
I wonder why that doesn't bother people who are "Sola Scriptura" and honestly, I think the reason is that most Protestants don't have any idea how their Bible came to be. It's really not their fault. When I was a Protestant, I didn't know either.
So, I think that after the Reformation, Protestants wanted to have a new identity separate from the Catholic Church. Since they no longer had the Church or Church History, or the Pope, or the Bishops, etc. to guide them, they decided they would figure out on their own which books belonged in the Bible.
If they followed the original Canon authorized by the Catholic Church, they would have to also follow other teachings of the Catholic Church that they didn't like, so instead they found the Jewish canon (like Cepha said, it was formed long after Jesus walked this earth)
They(reformers) needed something that felt religious, authoritative and ancient to connect to Jesus. Unfortunately that meant rejecting the Church and subsequently the Canon of Scripture that was authorized not by King James, but Jesus Himself. (actually, the originally KJV DID have the entire Bible, but the "Apocrypha" was removed around the 1800's.)
It's not that they added to the Bible, but they are missing out on a lot of good stuff. I think that if people were informed and studied and really sought out the truth it would lead to embracing the entirety of God's Word, the same Scriptures that the Apostles (and the noble Bereans by the way) used.
teresa
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Post by ezekiel33 on Apr 6, 2009 20:27:12 GMT -5
What teaching are different in catholics churches than in other christians churches?
Do those 7 book teach that Mary remained a Virgin, or that we should pray to statues, or that there is some place between heaven and hell called purgatory?
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2009 20:34:25 GMT -5
What teaching are different in catholics churches than in other christians churches? Great question. Too many to list when you consider that it would be us against 33,000+ other denominations. I think a better worded question would be: What practices did Protestants abandon when they left The Catholic Church during the Protestant Reformation? Purgatory, yes, but Purgatory is already mentioned in the NT. Mary's virginity? I don't dwell on Jesus' mother's sexual condition or history much. But, that is easily proven in the NT as well. And no on should ever pray "to" statues. That's a big time sin. |
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Post by ezekiel33 on Apr 6, 2009 20:43:38 GMT -5
What teaching are different in catholics churches than in other christians churches? Great question. Too many to list when you consider that it would be us against 33,000+ other denominations. I think a better worded question would be: What practices did Protestants abandon when they left The Catholic Church during the Protestant Reformation? Purgatory, yes, but Purgatory is already mentioned in the NT. Mary's virginity? I don't dwell on Jesus' mother's sexual condition or history much. But, that is easily proven in the NT as well. And no on should ever pray "to" statues. That's a big time sin. O.k. please, please show me purgatory or the perpetual virginity of Mary in the N.T. start a new thread to do so if you must. |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 7, 2009 14:48:53 GMT -5
Just to clarify, purgatory is not an "in between state" somewhere between heaven and hell. It is more like a process.
Scripture:
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
(1 Corinthians)
Is not God a consuming fire?
Purgatory is simply the process by which all the "chaff" in our hearts is consumed by God's mercy. But there is no need to purify someone with no faith. All who may go through purgatory will be in heaven afterwards.
teresa
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Post by ezekiel33 on Apr 7, 2009 18:33:15 GMT -5
Just to clarify, purgatory is not an "in between state" somewhere between heaven and hell. It is more like a process. Scripture: 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Corinthians) Is not God a consuming fire? Purgatory is simply the process by which all the "chaff" in our hearts is consumed by God's mercy. But there is no need to purify someone with no faith. All who may go through purgatory will be in heaven afterwards. teresa Good try but no cigar |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2009 19:54:07 GMT -5
This sounds like a great topic for a formal debate between you two. |
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Post by alfie on Apr 7, 2009 22:25:24 GMT -5
Just to clarify, purgatory is not an "in between state" somewhere between heaven and hell. It is more like a process. Scripture: 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Corinthians) Is not God a consuming fire? Purgatory is simply the process by which all the "chaff" in our hearts is consumed by God's mercy. But there is no need to purify someone with no faith. All who may go through purgatory will be in heaven afterwards. teresa That's the first time I heard a Catholic say that purgatory was a process rather than a place. If you are correct then why are so many Catholics afraid of purgatory and why do they try to pray other Catholics out of it? |
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Post by ezekiel33 on Apr 7, 2009 22:29:20 GMT -5
This sounds like a great topic for a formal debate between you two. There would be no debate, there is no way to biblicaly prove purgatory. So there is no need for to prove there isn't. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 7, 2009 22:37:01 GMT -5
Read:
2 Maccabees 12:39-45
Malachi 3:2-3
In the NT read:
Matthew 5:25-26
Matthew 12:32
Matthew 18:32-34
Luke 12:45-48
Luke 12:59
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
Rev. 21:27
They all support Purgatory
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2009 22:43:33 GMT -5
This sounds like a great topic for a formal debate between you two. There would be no debate, there is no way to biblicaly prove purgatory. So there is no need for to prove there isn't. That's like an Athiest saying that there's no God because it can't be proven in the Bible. Teresa would square yo away scripturally with all the proofs. I guess, it would be better for you to say that there is no way that you know how Purgatory could be proven. If you were so sure, you'd debate.  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2009 22:45:20 GMT -5
That's the first time I heard a Catholic say that purgatory was a process rather than a place. If you are correct then why are so many Catholics afraid of purgatory and why do they try to pray other Catholics out of it? Excellent questsions A. And, there are answers. But I'd like to see if a debate jumps off before I answer that. |
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Post by ezekiel33 on Apr 8, 2009 9:01:54 GMT -5
There would be no debate, there is no way to biblicaly prove purgatory. So there is no need for to prove there isn't. That's like an Athiest saying that there's no God because it can't be proven in the Bible. Teresa would square yo away scripturally with all the proofs. I guess, it would be better for you to say that there is no way that you know how Purgatory could be proven. If you were so sure, you'd debate. First all if both parties agree the Bible is true which we do, you could prove there is a God with the very first verse of the Bible.. ''In the beginning God''. There is no verse in all of scripture to support purgatory. |
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Post by ezekiel33 on Apr 8, 2009 9:11:11 GMT -5
Read: 2 Maccabees 12:39-45 Malachi 3:2-3 In the NT read: Matthew 5:25-26 Matthew 12:32 Matthew 18:32-34 Luke 12:45-48 Luke 12:59 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 Rev. 21:27 They all support Purgatory
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew 18:32-34
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Luke 12:45-48
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many str ipes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Luke 12:59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Rev. 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.I post these scripture to show how ridiculous it is to use them to support purgatory. If these are the verses you use to support this false belief, then I am more convinced than ever that it does not exist. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2009 12:26:12 GMT -5
That's like an Athiest saying that there's no God because it can't be proven in the Bible. Teresa would square yo away scripturally with all the proofs. I guess, it would be better for you to say that there is no way that you know how Purgatory could be proven. If you were so sure, you'd debate. First all if both parties agree the Bible is true which we do, you could prove there is a God with the very first verse of the Bible.. ''In the beginning God''. There is no verse in all of scripture to support purgatory. There is, but you won't allow it to be proven to you within the confines of a debate with a structured format. Fact is, if you were sure, you'd just agree to the debate. Why does it have to be done in a debate? Because there has to be a set format for acceptable proofs between the two parties. Speaking on behalf of Catholics, The Bible is all we need (no Strong's Concordance, no novels, no books, just The Holy Bible). It's there. Agree to the debate (once you've read and accepted the rules) and Teresa will show you. Or, we could have the debate. You do realize you've spent more time and text saying that it's not there than just going into the debate, don't you?  |
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Post by ezekiel33 on Apr 8, 2009 12:39:50 GMT -5
First all if both parties agree the Bible is true which we do, you could prove there is a God with the very first verse of the Bible.. ''In the beginning God''. There is no verse in all of scripture to support purgatory. There is, but you won't allow it to be proven to you within the confines of a debate with a structured format. Fact is, if you were sure, you'd just agree to the debate. Why does it have to be done in a debate? Because there has to be a set format for acceptable proofs between the two parties. Speaking on behalf of Catholics, The Bible is all we need (no Strong's Concordance, no novels, no books, just The Holy Bible). It's there. Agree to the debate (once you've read and accepted the rules) and Teresa will show you. Or, we could have the debate. You do realize you've spent more time and text saying that it's not there than just going into the debate, don't you? Debating purgatory is like if I said I wanted to debate that Jesus a Lucifer were brothers, I have not biblical foundation for that belief, it is completely unprovable, therefore undebatable. Same goes with purgatory. I will be happy if you want to lay out why you believe in purgatory in the debate forum, but just as Cradle Catholic did, the proof you use to believe in it is proof enough that it is false and extra biblical. So I would not need to respond. Your argument itself proves you wrong. Whoever if you want to lay your beliefs on this subject out in the debate forum that is fine by me. |
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Post by ezekiel33 on Apr 8, 2009 12:47:38 GMT -5
You do realize you've spent more time and text saying that it's not there than just going into the debate, don't you? I have not given any text to show purgatory is not there. I did however post the references the Cradle Catholic gave to show that is was there, and that alone showed it wasn't. Furthermore I do not need to show it is not there. You are the one with the claim it exist therefore onus is on you to show it is there. If you want to my your claim in the debate forum I will be glad to point out the flaw of your claim. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2009 13:24:18 GMT -5
You do realize you've spent more time and text saying that it's not there than just going into the debate, don't you? I have not given any text to show purgatory is not there. When I said text, I didn't mean scripture. I just meant your personal writing. That's called "negative evidence". That can't be proven. Nobody asked you to prove it's "not" there. Just to engage in a debate about it giving people the opportunity to prove to you that it is. Cool beans! I'll assume that we'll need no moderator between us. We can do this on the honor system. I'll set up the thread a little later on today. |
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Post by alfie on Apr 8, 2009 15:54:11 GMT -5
What teaching are different in catholics churches than in other christians churches? Great question. Too many to list when you consider that it would be us against 33,000+ other denominations. I think a better worded question would be: What practices did Protestants abandon when they left The Catholic Church during the Protestant Reformation? Purgatory, yes, but Purgatory is already mentioned in the NT. Mary's virginity? I don't dwell on Jesus' mother's sexual condition or history much. But, that is easily proven in the NT as well. And no on should ever pray "to" statues. That's a big time sin. First of all the Bible says absent from the body present with the Lord. If you believe in purgatory than you don't believe that the blood of Jesus is sufficient because when a Christian dies he is covered with it when he enters Heaven. When we stand before God covered with the blood, God cannot see our sins. Not only that but Jesus will be standing between us and God pleading our case because he is our advocate and mediator. After Jesus is done pleading our case God will prounouce us completely sinless and we will be glorified. |
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