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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2009 16:43:25 GMT -5
That's the first time I heard a Catholic say that purgatory was a process rather than a place. If you are correct then why are so many Catholics afraid of purgatory and why do they try to pray other Catholics out of it? Purgatory is a state of existance (as is Heaven and Hell). Maybe it's the first time you've heard that because it's the first time you're getting information from a Catholic who knows her stuff. Plus, it's in The Holy Bible. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2009 16:46:49 GMT -5
Read: I post these scripture to show how ridiculous it is to use them to support purgatory. If these are the verses you use to support this false belief, then I am more convinced than ever that it does not exist. Here's a question for you: If no one was saved until Jesus died for our sin, did God pull Moses out of Hell when Jesus talked to him in The Transfiguration? Or was Moses in Heaven? And if he was pulled from Heaven, how did he get to heaven without being saved?  |
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Post by ezekiel33 on Apr 8, 2009 16:47:18 GMT -5
That's the first time I heard a Catholic say that purgatory was a process rather than a place. If you are correct then why are so many Catholics afraid of purgatory and why do they try to pray other Catholics out of it? Purgatory is a state of existance (as is Heaven and Hell). Maybe it's the first time you've heard that because it's the first time you're getting information from a Catholic who knows her stuff. Plus, it's in The Holy Bible. Heaven and hell are actual places not states of existence. |
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Post by ezekiel33 on Apr 8, 2009 16:50:16 GMT -5
Read: I post these scripture to show how ridiculous it is to use them to support purgatory. If these are the verses you use to support this false belief, then I am more convinced than ever that it does not exist. Here's a question for you: If no one was saved until Jesus died for our sin, did God pull Moses out of Hell when Jesus talked to him in The Transfiguration? Or was Moses in Heaven? And if he was pulled from Heaven, how did he get to heaven without being saved? I will answer you like this.... he won't in purgatory. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2009 16:54:34 GMT -5
Here's a question for you: If no one was saved until Jesus died for our sin, did God pull Moses out of Hell when Jesus talked to him in The Transfiguration? Or was Moses in Heaven? And if he was pulled from Heaven, how did he get to heaven without being saved? I will answer you like this.... he won't in purgatory. You're answering a question I never asked. I asked you where he came from. I never asked you where he "didn't" come from. If you can't say heaven and you can't say hell, then you have to admit that there is another place where persons who weren't able to enter heaven, but had not sinned unto death (which is literally "in" The Bible) go. But, let's see how you respond to the same question...where was Moses if not in Heaven or Hell? |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2009 17:10:41 GMT -5
First of all the Bible says absent from the body present with the Lord. If you believe in purgatory than you don't believe that the blood of Jesus is sufficient because when a Christian dies he is covered with it when he enters Heaven. The Bible doesn't say that the body is covered in Jesus' blood when they die. And, Jesus died for original sin, not eternal sin. The price He paid was for Adam & Eve's sin. It wasn't a guarantee for us to get into heaven, it was an opportunity for those who were righteous to not have to pay for their forefathers (Adam & Eve) sin. No where in The Bible does it say that Jesus Who died for all mankind guaranteed all mankind salvation. That's why He sends Christians who didn't do what they were supposed to do when they were alive to Hell. Is that in The Bible? I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Jesus Himself is The Judge. God appointed Jesus to be the Judge. Your "mediator" is yourself and how you lived your life. That is how you will be judged. If you lived a righteous life, you wouldn't need a mediator. You need a mediator while you are still alive, but once you die, that's it. Jesus will not ask God to let you into heaven if you have unforgivable sins. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2009 17:12:20 GMT -5
Heaven and hell are actual places not states of existence. Ok, where is Heaven and where is Hell? And, where in The Bible does it literally state that they are places? (Scripture please...) |
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Post by ezekiel33 on Apr 8, 2009 21:52:03 GMT -5
I will answer you like this.... he won't in purgatory. You're answering a question I never asked. I asked you where he came from. I never asked you where he "didn't" come from. If you can't say heaven and you can't say hell, then you have to admit that there is another place where persons who weren't able to enter heaven, but had not sinned unto death (which is literally "in" The Bible) go. But, let's see how you respond to the same question...where was Moses if not in Heaven or Hell? Actually you are right there is a place were the righteous went before Messiah came. However that place was not purgatory nor was it a place of punishment or refining, it was a Paradise called Abraham's Bosom. This in no way prove the false Catholic teaching of purgatory, there has not been anyone in Abraham's bosom since Christ ascended to Heaven. |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 9, 2009 14:18:21 GMT -5
First of all, I'd like to know if you believe in "the Bible Alone" that is, that the Bible is the only "authority" for Christians.
Do you believe that truth cannot be found outside of the Bible?
If you want to debate, I would love to. First I need to know what BIble we are using.
It seems that you feel that every doctrine must be proven using Scripture only? What do you do when Scripture seems to contradict itself? To whose authority to your turn to reconcile the differences?
teresa
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 9, 2009 14:20:54 GMT -5
No need to create a false dichotomy. They are both places AND states of existence.
teresa
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Post by Cepha on Apr 9, 2009 21:11:31 GMT -5
First of all, I'd like to know if you believe in "the Bible Alone" that is, that the Bible is the only "authority" for Christians. Do you believe that truth cannot be found outside of the Bible? If you want to debate, I would love to. First I need to know what BIble we are using. It seems that you feel that every doctrine must be proven using Scripture only? What do you do when Scripture seems to contradict itself? To whose authority to your turn to reconcile the differences? teresa Debate already taking place. Right now, we are in the stages of defining sin. We are trying to distinguish the difference between venial and mortal sin. He believes that people who commit sin (according to scripture, not my words) "not unto death" will still go to hell. I believe that that type of sin means exactly that..."not" unto death (not mortal). Once we can arrive at a definition of sin, we can go on to purgatory. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 9, 2009 21:12:19 GMT -5
No need to create a false dichotomy. They are both places AND states of existence. teresa Wow. Great point.  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 9, 2009 22:14:15 GMT -5
Read: I post these scripture to show how ridiculous it is to use them to support purgatory. If these are the verses you use to support this false belief, then I am more convinced than ever that it does not exist. If no one was saved until Jesus died for our sin, did God pull Moses out of Hell when Jesus talked to him in The Transfiguration? Or was Moses in Heaven? And if he was pulled from Heaven, how did he get to heaven without being saved? |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 10, 2009 8:00:03 GMT -5
No, but it does prove that there could be a "place" that is not quite heaven, but not hell. I think that was Cepha's point.
teresa
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 10, 2009 8:31:19 GMT -5
Actually, the time of Jesus' intercession for us is NOW. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. (Romans 8) 27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.(Matthew 16) 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (2 Corinthians) Jesus died that we may have forgiveness of sins. Being forgiven doesn't necessarily take away the consequences of sin. A few months ago, my daughter lied to her teacher. I forgave her, but she still had to write an apology to her teacher. When David sinned by committing adultery and murder, he asked for God's forgiveness and God forgave him. But the consequence (or punishment if you will) of his sin remained, that is his son still died. God disciplines His children. If we aren't His sons at all, then our place is in hell. If we are his sons and daughters, we should want to be disciplined by God. We should want to be purged from all wickedness and from everything in us that is not pure. Whether the refining fire of God's love lasts 2 seconds or 2, 000 years (which is silly to try to measure, because God is greater than time) it doesn't matter. Why would you not want a pure heart? Did you automatically have a 100% pure heart when you first believed? Do you have one now? Then why wouldn't you want to have a pure heart, even if it requires suffering? 6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his child."
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate children at all. 9
(Hebrews 12)
Only those with a pure heart will see God. If you die, and your heart is not 100% pure, wouldn't you want the fire of God's love to melt away anything impure, so that you can see His face?
That is Purgatory. The Church doesn't say it is a place, and the Church doesn't say how "long" it takes. I just really don't understand why it is so offensive to some people?
The Church DOES say that "Purgatory" will cease after the final Judgement-- the New Jerusalem will be revealed, there will be no more death or suffering or pain. Everyone will have either died and been raised with Christ, or eternally separated from Him.
teresa
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Post by ezekiel33 on Apr 10, 2009 9:50:31 GMT -5
First of all, I'd like to know if you believe in "the Bible Alone" that is, that the Bible is the only "authority" for Christians. Do you believe that truth cannot be found outside of the Bible? If you want to debate, I would love to. First I need to know what BIble we are using. It seems that you feel that every doctrine must be proven using Scripture only? What do you do when Scripture seems to contradict itself? To whose authority to your turn to reconcile the differences? teresa #1 I believe that all doctrine must be tested by scripture, and if it does not line up it is false. #2 I use the kjv or nkjv. #3 The Bible does not contradict itself, if it ''seems'' to then it is because we are not understanding it correctly not that it opposes itself. Lastly I would like you to set up a debate thread, and have you show me purgatory in scripture. Hopefully you could do a better job than cepha did. All I learned from my ''supposed'' debate with cepha is that he does not understand 1st John 5:16 |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 10, 2009 15:35:36 GMT -5
"Lastly I would like you to set up a debate thread, and have you show me purgatory in scripture. Hopefully you could do a better job than cepha did. All I learned from my ''supposed'' debate with cepha is that he does not understand" 1st John 5:16
Okay, go to debate board.
peace
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Post by alfie on Apr 10, 2009 15:36:38 GMT -5
First of all, I'd like to know if you believe in "the Bible Alone" that is, that the Bible is the only "authority" for Christians. Do you believe that truth cannot be found outside of the Bible? If you want to debate, I would love to. First I need to know what BIble we are using. It seems that you feel that every doctrine must be proven using Scripture only? What do you do when Scripture seems to contradict itself? To whose authority to your turn to reconcile the differences? teresa Debate already taking place. Right now, we are in the stages of defining sin. We are trying to distinguish the difference between venial and mortal sin. He believes that people who commit sin (according to scripture, not my words) "not unto death" will still go to hell. I believe that that type of sin means exactly that..."not" unto death (not mortal). Once we can arrive at a definition of sin, we can go on to purgatory. How does the Catholic Church decide which are mortal sins and which are venial sins? |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 10, 2009 17:47:49 GMT -5
Debate already taking place. Right now, we are in the stages of defining sin. We are trying to distinguish the difference between venial and mortal sin. He believes that people who commit sin (according to scripture, not my words) "not unto death" will still go to hell. I believe that that type of sin means exactly that..."not" unto death (not mortal). Once we can arrive at a definition of sin, we can go on to purgatory. How does the Catholic Church decide which are mortal sins and which are venial sins? Hey Alfie, I'm glad you asked. The basis for determining what kinds of sins there are exist in Scripture. I will post the official teaching (at least, a small bit of it with the link if you want to read all of it): III. THE DIFFERENT KINDS OF SINS
1852 There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."127
1853 Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."128 But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.
IV. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN
1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.
1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.
Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.
1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:
When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner's will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131
1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.
1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134
While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.135
1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss. www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm |
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