"That doesn't count."

[Cepha]

Feb 12, 2009 22:53:44 GMT -5 watchman said:

cepha, If you do not think the Bible is meant to be taken literally then you are wrong, and if you do not know when Jesus is speaking in parables or using metaphors, then you are not only lacking in discernment, but common sense as well.

Common sense has no place on matters of faith.
That is placing your trust in what you tell yourself.
Faith requires no common sense.

And...how can you take the Bible literally, but also figuratively?

That's like having your cake and eating it too.

With that personal interpretation of scripture,
you can bend whatever is said in The Bible to fit what you want to believe.

You can't be completely literal all the time "some of the time".

You have to choose.

Or not...I can't tell you how to practice your religion.

So, do you agree that the words that you used to describe how Jesus was talking completely contradict the definition of the word "literal"?

Which would put you against yourself if you think about it.

[watchman]

so which do you believe cepha, do you believe that Jesus wants us to poke our eyes out and chop our arms off, or do you believe the whole Bible is just some nice learning tool on how to play nice, and none of should be taken literally at all?

Choose cepha go ahead.

[Cepha]

Feb 12, 2009 23:10:29 GMT -5 watchman said:

so which do you believe cepha, do you believe that Jesus wants us to poke our eyes out and chop our arms off, or do you believe the whole Bible is just some nice learning tool on how to play nice, and none of should be taken literally at all?

Choose cepha go ahead.

I believe firmly what Jesus said literally, that it is better for you to remove those things that cause you to sin.

I also believe in what Jesus "didn't" say...that if you stop sinning with those parts, there's no need to remove them.

See, I can reconcile my beliefs while still accepting everything that Jesus said...unlike those who can't hear His teachings because they are too difficult to listen to...

Just like in John 6:53 when Jesus said...
Then Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you."

John 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

There are those who follow Jesus, but just up until that point.
From there on, they don't believe when He said "Verily" which means "in truth". And since we know that Jesus doesn't lie, when He says that His flesh must be eaten, then it must be eaten.

verily
–adverb in truth; really; indeed.

Jesus said this "truthfully", not figuratively.
Verily doesn't mean figuratively or metaphorically or symbolically, but "truthfully".

And, you know us Catholics...we get criticized for taking The Bible "too" literally.

But what can we do...we follow Christ.

And if He says chop your arm off, chop it off.
If He says poke your eye out, poke it out.
If He says His flesh must be eaten, it must be eaten.

There is no room for personal interpretation or common sense in trying to understand what Jesus meant...obey, follow and adhere to His words to the letter, and you can't lose.

But when you start to think..."Jesus didn't "really" mean to poke your eye out.", then you are taking His words and personally interpretating them.

[Cepha]

Feb 12, 2009 23:10:29 GMT -5 watchman said:

so which do you believe cepha, do you believe that Jesus wants us to poke our eyes out and chop our arms off, or do you believe the whole Bible is just some nice learning tool on how to play nice, and none of should be taken literally at all?

Choose cepha go ahead.

What part of Jesus' teaching here don't you accept literally?

And why?

Matthew 5
29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[watchman]

So what you are really getting at is that you believe that Jesus wants us to eat his actual flesh and drink His actual blood, and you want me to agree with you that the Eucharist is actually the real presence of His real body and real blood, and you are claiming that if I do not agree with you then I can not say I take the Bible literally. The problem is that is your fight not mine. It does affect me on way or another, whether I am eating bread and drinking wine or grape juice in remembrance of His sacrifice or if the bread and wine turns into His body and blood, it is the same to me. You have to take this fight up with someone else who cares. However believe me when I tell you, I take the Bible every bit and even more so as literally as you.

[watchman]

Feb 12, 2009 23:23:54 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Feb 12, 2009 23:10:29 GMT -5 watchman said:

so which do you believe cepha, do you believe that Jesus wants us to poke our eyes out and chop our arms off, or do you believe the whole Bible is just some nice learning tool on how to play nice, and none of should be taken literally at all?

Choose cepha go ahead.

What part of Jesus' teaching here don't you accept literally?

And why?

Matthew 5
29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

I take it all literally, however when He is telling a parable or using metaphors I understand that He is literally using a metaphor.

[teresahrc]

So what you are really getting at is that you believe that Jesus wants us to eat his actual flesh and drink His actual blood, and you want me to agree with you that the Eucharist is actually the real presence of His real body and real blood, and you are claiming that if I do not agree with you then I can not say I take the Bible literally. The problem is that is your fight not mine. It does affect me on way or another, whether I am eating bread and drinking wine or grape juice in remembrance of His sacrifice or if the bread and wine turns into His body and blood, it is the same to me. You have to take this fight up with someone else who cares. However believe me when I tell you, I take the Bible every bit and even more so as literally a

Watchman, I don't think you are arguing with Cepha anymore. I think you are arguing with scripture.

Watchman said:

So what you are really getting at is that you believe that Jesus wants us to eat his actual flesh and drink His actual blood, and you want me to agree with you that the Eucharist is actually the real presence of His real body and real blood,

Jesus said:

Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

Watchman said:

It does affect me on way or another, whether I am eating bread and drinking wine or grape juice in remembrance of His sacrifice or if the bread and wine turns into His body and blood, it is the same to me.

Bible says:

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32

Watchman said:

However believe me when I tell you, I take the Bible every bit and even more so as literally

Jesus said:

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

teresa

[Cepha]

Feb 13, 2009 13:49:06 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

So what you are really getting at is that you believe that Jesus wants us to eat his actual flesh and drink His actual blood, and you want me to agree with you that the Eucharist is actually the real presence of His real body and real blood, and you are claiming that if I do not agree with you then I can not say I take the Bible literally. The problem is that is your fight not mine. It does affect me on way or another, whether I am eating bread and drinking wine or grape juice in remembrance of His sacrifice or if the bread and wine turns into His body and blood, it is the same to me. You have to take this fight up with someone else who cares. However believe me when I tell you, I take the Bible every bit and even more so as literally a

Watchman, I don't think you are arguing with Cepha anymore. I think you are arguing with scripture.

Watchman said:

Jesus said:

Watchman said:
Bible says:


Watchman said:

Jesus said:

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

teresa

It seems that to him, "literal" doesn't literally means what it means.

To him, literal is a sort of metaphorical figure of speech of a thing a' magigee.

Boggles my brain...how can one claim to take the Bible literally, then say that Jesus doesn't mean what He says, then inserts their own personal translation (not in The Bible) as to what Jesus really meant to say?

Doesn't accepting something literally is just accepting it as it is said?

[Cepha]

I guess he doesn't believe that He through which all things came into being and through Whom all things were made can't redefine what His own body is.

If Jesus told me that He was a pencil, I'd believe Him without question...not begin to translate His words: "See, Jesus is speaking in an abstract manner meaning that He is God's spiritual pencil and that God uses Him to write out salvation."

[watchman]

Feb 13, 2009 13:49:06 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

So what you are really getting at is that you believe that Jesus wants us to eat his actual flesh and drink His actual blood, and you want me to agree with you that the Eucharist is actually the real presence of His real body and real blood, and you are claiming that if I do not agree with you then I can not say I take the Bible literally. The problem is that is your fight not mine. It does affect me on way or another, whether I am eating bread and drinking wine or grape juice in remembrance of His sacrifice or if the bread and wine turns into His body and blood, it is the same to me. You have to take this fight up with someone else who cares. However believe me when I tell you, I take the Bible every bit and even more so as literally a

Watchman, I don't think you are arguing with Cepha anymore. I think you are arguing with scripture.

Watchman said:

Jesus said:

Watchman said:
Bible says:


Watchman said:

Jesus said:

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

teresa

I am not arguing at all, I have not once said that Communion was not Jesus' body and blood. You are arguing with a phantom.

[watchman]

Feb 13, 2009 16:04:17 GMT -5 watchman said:

I am not arguing at all, I have not once said that Communion was not Jesus' body and blood. You are arguing with a phantom.

In case you missed it this is what i said on the subject.

Feb 12, 2009 23:28:29 GMT -5 watchman said:

However believe me when I tell you, I take the Bible every bit and even more so as literally as you.

[Cepha]

Feb 13, 2009 16:12:52 GMT -5 watchman said:

Feb 13, 2009 16:04:17 GMT -5 watchman said:

I am not arguing at all, I have not once said that Communion was not Jesus' body and blood. You are arguing with a phantom.

In case you missed it this is what i said on the subject.

Feb 12, 2009 23:28:29 GMT -5 watchman said:

However believe me when I tell you, I take the Bible every bit and even more so as literally as you.

Now you're agruing with yourself?

[teresahrc]

I am not arguing at all, I have not once said that Communion was not Jesus' body and blood. You are arguing with a phantom.

No, but you said it doesn't matter to you one way or another.

It does affect me on way or another, whether I am eating bread and drinking wine or grape juice in remembrance of His sacrifice or if the bread and wine turns into His body and blood, it is the same to me. You have to take this fight up with someone else who cares.

I was just trying to show you that you SHOULD care.

You really can't say you take the Bible literally, but then NOT CARE about the Lord's Supper.

Scripture says that if you DON'T RECOGNIZE THAT IT IS TRULY THE BLOOD AND BODY OF CHRIST IN THE EUCHARIST THAT YOU EAT AND DRINK JUDGEMENT ON YOURSELF AND PROFANE HIS BODY AND BLOOD.


27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32


If you don't agree, that's your personal choice, but we Catholics didn't make it up, it's right there in scripture, plain as day, not a metaphor or a parable.

peace
teresa

[Cepha]

Feb 14, 2009 12:17:31 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

I am not arguing at all, I have not once said that Communion was not Jesus' body and blood. You are arguing with a phantom.

No, but you said it doesn't matter to you one way or another.

It does affect me on way or another, whether I am eating bread and drinking wine or grape juice in remembrance of His sacrifice or if the bread and wine turns into His body and blood, it is the same to me. You have to take this fight up with someone else who cares.

I was just trying to show you that you SHOULD care.

You really can't say you take the Bible literally, but then NOT CARE about the Lord's Supper.

Scripture says that if you DON'T RECOGNIZE THAT IT IS TRULY THE BLOOD AND BODY OF CHRIST IN THE EUCHARIST THAT YOU EAT AND DRINK JUDGEMENT ON YOURSELF AND PROFANE HIS BODY AND BLOOD.


27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32


If you don't agree, that's your personal choice, but we Catholics didn't make it up, it's right there in scripture, plain as day, not a metaphor or a parable.

peace
teresa

That's odd...

...how could a Christian "not" care about The Eucharist when Jesus said that it is mandatory for Salvation?

Jesus said,

"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."

John 6:53

[watchman]

Feb 14, 2009 12:17:31 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

I am not arguing at all, I have not once said that Communion was not Jesus' body and blood. You are arguing with a phantom.

No, but you said it doesn't matter to you one way or another.

It does affect me on way or another, whether I am eating bread and drinking wine or grape juice in remembrance of His sacrifice or if the bread and wine turns into His body and blood, it is the same to me. You have to take this fight up with someone else who cares.

I was just trying to show you that you SHOULD care.

You really can't say you take the Bible literally, but then NOT CARE about the Lord's Supper.

I care about the Lord Supper, however I am not Catholic nor protestant, and I do not think Catholics are holier or better at communion the protestants because they do see the bread and wine as the actual body and blood, and I do not think the protestants are more holy or better at communion than you because they believe it is a representation of His body and blood. You two groups need to argue that one out on your own I have no stake in it.

If you don't agree, that's your personal choice, but we Catholics didn't make it up, it's right there in scripture, plain as day, not a metaphor or a parable.
peace
teresa

Once again, I never said I didn't agree.

[Cepha]

Feb 14, 2009 19:55:08 GMT -5 watchman said:

I care about the Lord Supper,

"It does affect me on way or another, whether I am eating bread and drinking wine or grape juice in remembrance of His sacrifice or if the bread and wine turns into His body and blood, it is the same to me.


You have to take this fight up with someone else who cares."

however I am not Catholic nor protestant, and I do not think Catholics are holier or better at communion the protestants because they do see the bread and wine as the actual body and blood, and I do not think the protestants are more holy or better at communion than you because they believe it is a representation of His body and blood. You two groups need to argue that one out on your own I have no stake in it.

Well, speaking on behalf of Catholics, we don't have to argue with anybody...we've been doing this for 2,000 years and it is a traditional Christian belief and practice found "in" Scripture.

It's the non-believers in Jesus' words that argue.

It is what it is...if a person takes the Bible literally, then they have to accept the ritual of Holy Communion.

Jesus instituted it, He practiced it, He did it as soon as He was ressurected, Paul defended it...

There really is no argument to be had I think.

[watchman]

Feb 14, 2009 20:20:12 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Feb 14, 2009 19:55:08 GMT -5 watchman said:

I care about the Lord Supper,

"It does affect me on way or another, whether I am eating bread and drinking wine or grape juice in remembrance of His sacrifice or if the bread and wine turns into His body and blood, it is the same to me.


You have to take this fight up with someone else who cares."

however I am not Catholic nor protestant, and I do not think Catholics are holier or better at communion the protestants because they do see the bread and wine as the actual body and blood, and I do not think the protestants are more holy or better at communion than you because they believe it is a representation of His body and blood. You two groups need to argue that one out on your own I have no stake in it.

Well, speaking on behalf of Catholics, we don't have to argue with anybody...we've been doing this for 2,000 years and it is a traditional Christian belief and practice found "in" Scripture.

It's the non-believers in Jesus' words that argue.

It is what it is...if a person takes the Bible literally, then they have to accept the ritual of Holy Communion.

Jesus instituted it, He practiced it, He did it as soon as He was ressurected, Paul defended it...

There really is no argument to be had I think.

So you are saying no protestant believes in Jesus? That is a pretty bold statement.

Where is the chapter and verse that says Jesus took communion after the resurrection?

[Cepha]

[Cepha]

Feb 14, 2009 20:27:45 GMT -5 watchman said:

So you are saying no protestant believes in Jesus? That is a pretty bold statement.

No.

What did I say that led you to personally misinterpret my words?

Where is the chapter and verse that says Jesus took communion after the resurrection?

Luke 24: 30

"And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them."