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Post by teresahrc on Feb 7, 2009 15:20:16 GMT -5
So then to paraphrase what you just said-- the Bible is not essential for receiving salvation, just the Church(i.e. another Christian to explain the doctrines of salvation)? You're almost Catholic Watchman!  peace teresa |
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Post by teresahrc on Feb 7, 2009 15:21:48 GMT -5
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Post by Cepha on Feb 7, 2009 17:08:37 GMT -5
JOHN 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 7, 2009 17:09:59 GMT -5
So then to paraphrase what you just said-- the Bible is not essential for receiving salvation, just the Church(i.e. another Christian to explain the doctrines of salvation)? You're almost Catholic Watchman! peace teresa Question! What existed first? The Catholic Church? Or The Holy Bible? |
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Post by watchman on Feb 7, 2009 18:03:15 GMT -5
So then to paraphrase what you just said-- the Bible is not essential for receiving salvation, just the Church(i.e. another Christian to explain the doctrines of salvation)? You're almost Catholic Watchman! peace teresa You dont need the Bible or the church just an evangelist. I know you meant your almost catholic statement as a compliment, and I appreciate the sentiment. However I am far from Catholic and do not ever what to become Catholic. |
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Post by teresahrc on Feb 7, 2009 18:43:58 GMT -5
LOL! I used to say the exact same thing. I also used to say I would go to any people in the world (as a missionary) but not to Muslims....but we are on our way to Turkey.
But watchman, the point I'm trying to make is that the evangelist IS the Church. (we who are many parts form one body--you know)
And I know you think you are "far from Catholic" but you really aren't. Everything Catholics are, and do, and believe is completely and totally centered on the Lord Jesus Christ. I hope that you are not far from that?
But I'm glad you are here because you sure are fun to "debate". The fact that you've put up with us for this long shows you have quite a bit of virtue.
peace
teresa
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Post by Cepha on Feb 7, 2009 18:47:04 GMT -5
You dont need the Bible or the church just an evangelist. I know you meant your almost catholic statement as a compliment, and I appreciate the sentiment. However I am far from Catholic and do not ever what to become Catholic. "What" would that Evangelist be preaching without a Bible?  Or doctrines (salvation, justification, Trinitarian, etc...)? |
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Post by teresahrc on Feb 7, 2009 18:58:40 GMT -5
Actually, now I'm confused because I thought Watchman said he believed in "Sola Scriptura"?
Watchman, what is your definition of "Sola Scriptura"?
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Post by watchman on Feb 7, 2009 23:01:10 GMT -5
Actually, now I'm confused because I thought Watchman said he believed in "Sola Scriptura"? Watchman, what is your definition of "Sola Scriptura"? My definition of Sola Scripture is this and it is personal to me. I do not believe anything that cannot be supported with scripture. If someone teaches something that is neutral (meaning not taught in or denied by scripture) I don't believe it, but I don't necessarily dismiss it off hand. However if something is taught that opposes scripture, I oppose it regardless of who claims it is tradition. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 7, 2009 23:02:56 GMT -5
LOL! I used to say the exact same thing. I also used to say I would go to any people in the world (as a missionary) but not to Muslims....but we are on our way to Turkey. But watchman, the point I'm trying to make is that the evangelist IS the Church. (we who are many parts form one body--you know) And I know you think you are "far from Catholic" but you really aren't. Everything Catholics are, and do, and believe is completely and totally centered on the Lord Jesus Christ. I hope that you are not far from that? But I'm glad you are here because you sure are fun to "debate". The fact that you've put up with us for this long shows you have quite a bit of virtue. peace teresa ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 8, 2009 12:32:32 GMT -5
My definition of Sola Scripture is this and it is personal to me. I do not believe anything that cannot be supported with scripture. Not trying to jump on your personal beliefs, but how do you know "which" scriptures to believe in? When you say "in scripture", I'm assuming that you mean only those scriptures found in The Holy Bible, right? Since the knowledge to create the canon of The Bible is "not" in The Bible, where do you get your trust in The Bible from? For example, the Doctrine of The Holy Trinity cannot be found anywhere in The Bible (only the allustions to it). In order for it to be explained, an exterior source has to do it because The Bible itself doesn't explain The Trinity to us. So since the Doctrine of The Trinity is no where to be found "in" The Bible, how can you trust it? I was at that stage myself too once. Luckily, I was born into The Church that has all the answers pretty much (but that's what you get with 2,000 years of existance...a foundation of history to rely on). Not in anyway belittling anything that "isn't" Universal Christianity, but just stating why I feel how I feel when I feel blessed to be a "universal" Christian. The problem with "not" believing in something that is not in scripture is that The Bible isn't in scripture...so how can you believe "in" it? Computers aren't taught in scripture, but we know that they undeniably exist. Jesus never talked about a lot of things...would you refuse to accept a teaching of His that couldn't be located "in" scripture? And "which" scripture do you trust with your eternal soul (since there are so many different versions and interpretations of scripture)? You mean if something is taught that opposes what you "personally interpret" as scripture, that you oppose. Right?
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Post by Cepha on Feb 8, 2009 13:27:50 GMT -5
LOL! I used to say the exact same thing. I also used to say I would go to any people in the world (as a missionary) but not to Muslims....but we are on our way to Turkey. But watchman, the point I'm trying to make is that the evangelist IS the Church. (we who are many parts form one body--you know) And I know you think you are "far from Catholic" but you really aren't. Everything Catholics are, and do, and believe is completely and totally centered on the Lord Jesus Christ. I hope that you are not far from that? But I'm glad you are here because you sure are fun to "debate". The fact that you've put up with us for this long shows you have quite a bit of virtue. peace teresa ;D Yep...WMan has us talking about "good" things again, while my supposed "Catholic" bretheren from CAF (go figure) really didn't contribute to any of the religiously themed threads here (I think Kathleen did). |
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Post by teresahrc on Feb 8, 2009 14:40:37 GMT -5
ok, but what do you do with the "apparent contradictions" of scripture? Aren't you forced to decide based on your own personal understanding? Example: 1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
(1 Timothy 4)
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen [c] away, to be brought back to repentance(Hebrews 6) compared to: 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
(John 10)Also, what do you do with passages such as this: 8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid. [The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.] 9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it. ..... Besides that, what about this: 14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. I'm in no way saying you are ignorant or unstable! But what if an ignorant person was reading scripture on their own and distorting it? How would they even know they were distorting it? What standard would someone use to determine the accurate interpretation of "things that are hard to understand" in scripture? How would that ignorant person know which church to go to in order to obtain good teaching? peace teresa |
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Post by watchman on Feb 8, 2009 22:46:15 GMT -5
My definition of Sola Scripture is this and it is personal to me. I do not believe anything that cannot be supported with scripture. Not trying to jump on your personal beliefs, but how do you know "which" scriptures to believe in? When you say "in scripture", I'm assuming that you mean only those scriptures found in The Holy Bible, right? Since the knowledge to create the canon of The Bible is "not" in The Bible, where do you get your trust in The Bible from? For example, the Doctrine of The Holy Trinity cannot be found anywhere in The Bible (only the allustions to it). In order for it to be explained, an exterior source has to do it because The Bible itself doesn't explain The Trinity to us. So since the Doctrine of The Trinity is no where to be found "in" The Bible, how can you trust it? Who said I put my trust in the doctrine of the Trinity? I do not interpret the Bible I read it and accept it how it is written. P.S. I didn't answer the 2nd portion of your post because you started going on an illogical rant about not believing in computers, and such. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 8, 2009 22:53:13 GMT -5
Teresa to your first question. The scripture saying no one can pluck us out of God's hand does not say imply or teach that we cannot turn from our own salvation.
#2 The women ran out does not mean Mary magdalene ran off with them.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 8, 2009 22:59:41 GMT -5
Who said I put my trust in the doctrine of the Trinity? I'm sorry...I just assumed that since you said you were a Christian, you automatically believed in The Holy Trinity. Ok, Trinity's out. How about The Doctrine of Salvation then? So you believe that Peter was in Iraq at one time? Well, that's how "you" personally interpreted what I wrote. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 8, 2009 23:04:31 GMT -5
Who said I put my trust in the doctrine of the Trinity? I'm sorry...I just assumed that since you said you were a Christian, you automatically believed in The Holy Trinity. Ok, Trinity's out. How about The Doctrine of Salvation then? John 3:16, Acts 2:38, Romans 3:23-24, Romans 10:9-10. Should I go on? Should I? |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 9, 2009 1:10:56 GMT -5
John 3:16, Acts 2:38, Romans 3:23-24, Romans 10:9-10. Should I go on? There is no Doctrine shown there. Those are verses. A "doctrine" is a body of teachings that reveal the truth of those teachings that make up it's body. Each teaching separate doesn't prove the doctrine alone, but together, they provide the basis for believing in the belief. There is no "doctrine" on Salvation in The Holy Bible...just various teachings that contribute to the Doctrine of Salvation. Well, "if" you accept what you read in The Bible, then you have to believe that Peter was in Iraq since The Scriptures literally say that Peter was in Iraq. So you believe that Peter was "in" Iraq, right? (Even though this is not a "Christian" belief) |
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Post by watchman on Feb 9, 2009 11:20:08 GMT -5
John 3:16, Acts 2:38, Romans 3:23-24, Romans 10:9-10. Should I go on? There is no Doctrine shown there. Those are verses. A "doctrine" is a body of teachings that reveal the truth of those teachings that make up it's body. Each teaching separate doesn't prove the doctrine alone, but together, they provide the basis for believing in the belief. There is no "doctrine" on Salvation in The Holy Bible...just various teachings that contribute to the Doctrine of Salvation. I disagree I believe tha doctrine of salvation is clearly evident in scripture. Show me the chapter and verse. |
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Post by teresahrc on Feb 9, 2009 15:08:55 GMT -5
Good! Then you must believe in the real presense of Jesus in the Eucharist (Jesus said "This is my body...")
But isn't that your own interpretation? Doesn't "No one" include ourselves? What about all the Christians that say there is "eternal security" are they less Spirit-guided than those who don't believe it?
#2--You missed the point. I'm not trying to talk about Mary Magdalene, I was showing where there are certain verses that are in some ancient texts, but not in others (the example given was Mark 16: 9-20). How do you know which ending is correct?
teresa
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