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Post by teresahrc on Dec 4, 2008 13:50:14 GMT -5
What worldly means do you speak of? The English language? Books? History?
You are correct that His Kingdom is "not of this world", but that doesn't mean it is intangible in this world. Did not our Lord Himself walk on this earth with flesh and bones? Was He not visible (and still is in heaven)? Did not the disciples touch Him and eat with Him?
Do not make the error of the Gnostic's who believe that all matter is evil.
True, there are aspects of the Church that are not eternal. Bricks and wood and pews will all be refined by fire in the last day. In the same way, even Christ used material things--clothes, food, dishes, etc. many of which have already disintegrated back into dust. However, just as Jesus' healing power came even through a touch of his garment, so we believe that even material elements of the Church can be instruments of God's grace.
Lastly, consider this verse:
13For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
14I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long;
15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. (1 Timothy)
Not only does the Church have "official" positions such as deacons, it also has--even in the very early days--physical realities such as places of worship which require certain manners of conduct.
The question is which Church rightly claims direct lineage of the New Testament Church that Jesus established? And which Church is perfectly united in it's teachings of truth?
The Catholic Church.
teresa
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Post by Cepha on Dec 4, 2008 14:16:23 GMT -5
What worldly means do you speak of? The English language? Books? History? You are correct that His Kingdom is "not of this world", but that doesn't mean it is intangible in this world. Did not our Lord Himself walk on this earth with flesh and bones? Was He not visible (and still is in heaven)? Did not the disciples touch Him and eat with Him? Do not make the error of the Gnostic's who believe that all matter is evil. True, there are aspects of the Church that are not eternal. Bricks and wood and pews will all be refined by fire in the last day. In the same way, even Christ used material things--clothes, food, dishes, etc. many of which have already disintegrated back into dust. However, just as Jesus' healing power came even through a touch of his garment, so we believe that even material elements of the Church can be instruments of God's grace. Lastly, consider this verse: 13For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
14I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long;
15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. (1 Timothy) Not only does the Church have "official" positions such as deacons, it also has--even in the very early days--physical realities such as places of worship which require certain manners of conduct. The question is which Church rightly claims direct lineage of the New Testament Church that Jesus established? And which Church is perfectly united in it's teachings of truth? The Catholic Church. teresa Amen to all that...and nothing that God creates is evil. It's what mankind does with it that's evil. A gun can be used to save a life or to take a life. It all depends on what the person that's holding it does. Same thing with religion. In our case, God's holding our faith! |
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jhardin
Junior Member
"...wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the (c)atholic (spiritual) Church." Ignatius 110 A.D.
Posts: 65
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Post by jhardin on Dec 7, 2008 8:43:14 GMT -5
There is a huge difference between Jesus being "universal" in a spiritual sense, and the Catholic Church being universal in a physical sense. How is a physically "universal" Church "not" spiritually universal? How do you measure one's universalness? The Church is universal in everysense of the word...one group of different physical ethnicities and beings under one unifying spiritual teaching. Both are universal...a universal belief among a universal group of individual persons/groups. Again... there is a big difference between spiritually universal and physically universal. The Catholic Church claims to be universally united in doctrine and belief.. but the truth is, in matters apart from doctrine and Biblical belief they are no more united than a Muslim and a Jew. Unity based on belief is superficial. Christians are united by the Spirit of God regardless of denominational affiliation or comprehensive belief in Biblical doctrine. The catholic (universal) church is 'spiritual' and the unity is held together by the cords of the Holy Spirit... not a confession or a physical world based organization. In the beginning there was only one denomination... and the were called Christians first in Antioch. The Catholic Church is the one who started the denominational segregation. The reference to the Catholic Church you mentioned is from Ignatius, the pastor of the Church in Antioch where they were first called Christians. When he used the word 'catholic' he was only saying that the church is universal... not the Catholic Church, but the Christian one... the one he was a member of. I never said that either. What I am saying is that any kingdom that is not spiritual is not Jesus' kingdom, because he said his kingdom is not of this world. Any kingdom that claims unity based on pervasiveness of thought is not a spiritual kingdom... heck, the Babylonians had that kind of kingdom. But the unity Christians experience is altogether deeper. Our unity is found in our inclusion in Christ and the seal of that redemption which is the Holy Spirit. |
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Post by Cepha on Dec 8, 2008 13:46:01 GMT -5
The Catholic Church claims to be universally united in doctrine and belief.. but the truth is, in matters apart from doctrine and Biblical belief they are no more united than a Muslim and a Jew. Unity based on belief is superficial. Christians are united by the Spirit of God regardless of denominational affiliation or comprehensive belief in Biblical doctrine. But don't they have to first have faith "in" God to be able to be united "by" God? Therefore, is not "belief" a prerequisite? I wouldn't call The Church a denomination. By it's very definition, a denomination can only occur when there are more than one. There were no denomination(s) before Protestantism. Just universal (Catholic) Christianity. Even The Orthodox Church that schismed from us are still "Catholics". We didn't leave anybody...we always existed with the beginning of Christianity. It was Post 16th Century Protestantism that birthed "denominational" Christianity. Our Church is founded upon Cepha (Peter The Rock). Matthew 7 prophesized what happened to those churches founded upon Luther's Doctrines (The Solas and so forth): 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. See that? The house built upon Cepha (literally "rock") stood the tests of the spirits (water and winds are commonly referred to as spirits as the word house is commonly used for "church"). But the house built upon sand and/or soil aka man (Luther and Protestantism's church) collapsed (that's why there are 33,000+ different denominations of Protestantism today like the fragments of that house spoken of by Jesus). Well, let's look at what else Saint Ignatius said about The Catholic Church and the undeniably Catholic practices that only Catholics practice today... Ignatius of Antioch"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).
"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).
"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . .
...They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).
"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).
"For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop" (ibid., 8).
"I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 4 (c. A.D. 110).
"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Mast High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who farmed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour; the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love..." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, Prologue (A.D. 110). These are all stuanchly Catholic beliefs that non-Catholic Christians reject all said by the same man who called The Church The Catholic Church. Of course it was universal and "not" denominational. It always was and still is. It's only "denominational" churches that are denominational. Pax.  |
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Post by teresahrc on Dec 8, 2008 20:51:28 GMT -5
 ??  ? ? So belief that Jesus is Lord of all is a superficial thing to be united on? Belief that Jesus died for our sins and rose again is a superficial unity? Please keep in mind that people act on their beliefs. It is also true that many Christians, Catholic or not, do not fully understand their faith or live it out. However, Christianity is all about faith + actions so how can you say that the doctrines of our faith are superficial?? Please justify your comment. teresa |
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Post by Cepha on Dec 9, 2008 9:43:44 GMT -5
?? ? ? So belief that Jesus is Lord of all is a superficial thing to be united on? Belief that Jesus died for our sins and rose again is a superficial unity? Please keep in mind that people act on their beliefs. It is also true that many Christians, Catholic or not, do not fully understand their faith or live it out. However, Christianity is all about faith + actions so how can you say that the doctrines of our faith are superficial?? Please justify your comment. teresa I think he might have mispoken and we might be misunderstanding him. I can believe that he means to belittle faith. Let's just give him a chance to clarify himself. Pax. |
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Post by Cepha on Dec 14, 2008 15:30:20 GMT -5
How is a physically "universal" Church "not" spiritually universal? How do you measure one's universalness? The Church is universal in everysense of the word...one group of different physical ethnicities and beings under one unifying spiritual teaching. Both are universal...a universal belief among a universal group of individual persons/groups. Again... there is a big difference between spiritually universal and physically universal. The Catholic Church claims to be universally united in doctrine and belief.. but the truth is, in matters apart from doctrine and Biblical belief they are no more united than a Muslim and a Jew. Unity based on belief is superficial. Christians are united by the Spirit of God regardless of denominational affiliation or comprehensive belief in Biblical doctrine. The catholic (universal) church is 'spiritual' and the unity is held together by the cords of the Holy Spirit... not a confession or a physical world based organization. In the beginning there was only one denomination... and the were called Christians first in Antioch. The Catholic Church is the one who started the denominational segregation. The reference to the Catholic Church you mentioned is from Ignatius, the pastor of the Church in Antioch where they were first called Christians. When he used the word 'catholic' he was only saying that the church is universal... not the Catholic Church, but the Christian one... the one he was a member of. I never said that either. What I am saying is that any kingdom that is not spiritual is not Jesus' kingdom, because he said his kingdom is not of this world. Any kingdom that claims unity based on pervasiveness of thought is not a spiritual kingdom... heck, the Babylonians had that kind of kingdom. But the unity Christians experience is altogether deeper. Our unity is found in our inclusion in Christ and the seal of that redemption which is the Holy Spirit. His quote in it's entirety... Ignatius of Antioch "Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]) How many "universal" (small "u") churches have The Eucharist? |
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Post by watchman on Jan 2, 2009 18:19:16 GMT -5
The reference to the Catholic Church you mentioned is from Ignatius, the pastor of the Church in Antioch where they were first called Christians. When he used the word 'catholic' he was only saying that the church is universal... not the Catholic Church, but the Christian one... the one he was a member of. Yes when Ignatius made this statement he was not referring to what we know as the Catholic or Roman catholic church. He was speaking of the church period, the universal church. |
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Post by Cepha on Jan 5, 2009 10:19:32 GMT -5
The reference to the Catholic Church you mentioned is from Ignatius, the pastor of the Church in Antioch where they were first called Christians. When he used the word 'catholic' he was only saying that the church is universal... not the Catholic Church, but the Christian one... the one he was a member of. Yes when Ignatius made this statement he was not referring to what we know as the Catholic or Roman catholic church. He was speaking of the church period, the universal church. But that's exactly what The Catholic Church is...literally The Universal Church. Also, what Protestants miss is that within that same quote where he talked about The Catholic Church, he also spoke of the sacrament that only Catholics have today and have had since his time...The Eucharist. Here are his words: Chapter VIII. Let nothing be done without the bishop.
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution [1027] of God.
Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper [1028] Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it.
Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.
It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. [1029]
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out [through their office] the appointment of God.
Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper [1030] Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it.
Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as where Christ is, there does all the heavenly host stand by, waiting upon Him as the Chief Captain of the Lord's might, and the Governor of every intelligent nature. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize, or to offer, or to present sacrifice, or to celebrate a love-feast. [1031]
But that which seems good to him, is also well-pleasing to God, that everything ye do may be secure and valid.
Here is the entire document:mb-soft.com/believe/txv/ignatiu6.htm |
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