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Post by knuckle on Jul 13, 2008 7:39:15 GMT -5
Hi All--------------
You see the poll and truthfully there are verses that can be used to back up all these positions--- which one do you believe?Why?
much love-----------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Jul 13, 2008 9:55:29 GMT -5
We without a doubt have free will. Does God make us do things? I don't know. But I know that He certainly suggests things for us to do. We have free will. That is what separates us from all other living things. Even the rock that exists exists within the parameters that it's creator God has set for it. Good question Knucks.  |
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Post by knuckle on Jul 13, 2008 12:44:42 GMT -5
Hi Cepha------------------
Sorry Bro. have to disagree.God is evidently in control of all things and free will only seems free from inside the box
much love---------------knuckle
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Post by redsoxfan on Jul 17, 2008 23:46:17 GMT -5
RedSoxFan was given free will, that was God's will and RSF's destiny! =P
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Post by righteousone on Jul 19, 2008 7:31:23 GMT -5
No, knuckle, we have free will. Judas had free will, yet HE CHOSE to betray our Lord. God is in control of everything but he gave us free will. It is also free will that you learn about Catholicism and do nothing about it, since it was the church founded by Christ.
Also free will on whether you want to believe in God or not.
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Post by knuckle on Jul 19, 2008 8:31:06 GMT -5
Sorry R1,
If any of us has an uncaused 'free' will then why are we told:
Pro 16:1
The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Pro 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me [where is anything about man's fabled 'free' will in these verses?]:
Isa 45:6
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else [Where is this 'free' will?].
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first ["first," not 'only'] trusted in Christ.
All Churches teach us just the opposite. 'Evil,' we are lied to, 'is the result of your own choices.'
Jer 18:1
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 18:2
Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jer 18:3
Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5
Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6
O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
The world's churches would answer, 'Absolutely not!' to the Great Potter. 'What are you saying? Are you saying we are nothing but a puppet on a string?' is their constant retort to this question by a Potter who informs them that they are deliberately marred in His hand. But what says the Great Potter to man's beastly claim to some fabled 'free will?' Is man indeed a 'puppet on a string?' No, the Great Potter gives man no such dignity as a puppet: "Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."
Ask your Priest or Pastor about the "free will" in Verses such as......
Jer 10:23
O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Again orthodox Christianity argues with their own Creator that 'It IS in man himself to choose what steps he will take. It IS in man to freely decide whether to obey God.' What happened to that orthodox Christian teaching of man's 'free will' here in this verse? Where is the scripture for such a doctrine? Is it to be found in these Words of Truth?
Pro 20:24
Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Pro 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
No, it is not in those verses either? So where is the scripture for the doctrine of the free will of man? Surely here is a verse which proves beyond any doubt that God has given man a free will:
Jos 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
And what are we told the people "chose" to do?
Jos 24:16
And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
Is this not surely a Biblical example of the exercise of man's 'free will?' The entire orthodox Christian world point to this verse and proclaims that that is exactly what it proves. But what say the scripture about Israel's choice?; "God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods." Here is the Truth once again straight from the Word of God concerning this subject of man's will to do good and to obey God:
Jos 24:19
And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
Why can they not serve the Lord? The answer is always consistently the same:
Jer 10:23
O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Why is it that man cannot choose to serve God? Did not Israel just do so? It surely appears that Israel chose to serve the Lord. But what really happened? What was the Truth of Israel's choice to serve God? Here is the truth from the Word of God:
Deu 5:29
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Deu 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.
Deu 31:29
For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
"You will do evil... after my death you will corrupt yourselves?" What became of Israel's self proclaimed 'free will choice,' "God forbid that we should forsake the LORD...?"
Though orthodox Christianity is unaware of this truth, our Creator is well aware that He has not given them "such a heart, that they would fear me." "To them it is not given...":
Matt 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Matt 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
How can God say "It is not given to them to understand," when in reality, according to orthodox Christianity, that choice is not God's choice to be making. "Not given to them to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven?" Where is room for so much as the thought of 'free will' in a statement such as that? The answer--No Where
As Hard as it is to contemplate the truth (if the bible is to be believed as it is written) is that God is in control.
You mentioned Judas making a free will choice and betraying Christ lets see what Jesus said about this......
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Whose choice was it?the truth is that God is sovereign over both good and evil:
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
So not only was Judas made for the purpose of effecting Christ's betrayal, but so also were all who were involved.
Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Herod, the king of the Jews; Pontius Pilate, the Roman Governor representing the Gentiles; and we can throw in Judas and each of us and even all of Christ's own disciples; we are either against Christ or at the very least forsaking Him. And why was that so?
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
we all have the ability to make choices. We all make hundreds or thousands of choices every day. But not one choice ever made since our father Adam was a "free choice." All choices that have ever been or ever will be made are caused choices. I will give but one quick example. Pilate was not inclined to have Christ crucified.
Luke 23:22 And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.
Peter reiterates this truth on the day of Pentecost:
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
What does this all mean? Let me quote it again:
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
What it all means is that Judas had no more freedom of choice than did Pilate, Herod, the Gentiles or the people of Israel. Each and every one involved has a choice to make. And each of them and each of us will give account for our choices. But none of us will ever be held responsible for those choices, because those choices are each and every one of them caused choices.
And that is why we are faced with the amazing fact that the word 'responsible' is nowhere to be found in all of the Bible! Judas was as predestinated as any of us to do what he did and to be what he was.
much love-----------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Jul 19, 2008 13:01:29 GMT -5
No, knuckle, we have free will. Judas had free will, yet HE CHOSE to betray our Lord. God is in control of everything but he gave us free will. It is also free will that you learn about Catholicism and do nothing about it, since it was the church founded by Christ. Also free will on whether you want to believe in God or not. If we didn't have free will, then were Adam & Eve controlled by Satan when they bit of the fruit of the tree of life? Or by God? |
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Post by knuckle on Jul 19, 2008 13:21:09 GMT -5
Hi Cepha--------------
Well the question deserves an answer but to get there we have to look a bit deeper
Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
And who is it that has come to destroy?
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Who is it who Christ tells us is the original murderer, who was created to "steal to kill and to destroy?"
John 8:44 Ye [You Jews which believe on me] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Satan was created to be the adversary of man it is his purpose the reason he was made therefore in answer to your question Satan deceived Adam and Eve according to the plan of God.Our first parents made the choice but ultimately God was the cause of it.
Now why would God do that?We'll like all parents God wants His children to be like Him
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
and the rest is history but for man to ever be like God this first step was necessary.
much love----------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Jul 19, 2008 13:28:55 GMT -5
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Post by Cepha on Jul 19, 2008 13:31:37 GMT -5
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Post by knuckle on Jul 19, 2008 13:56:12 GMT -5
Hi Cepha-------------
Why did Satan(or any one else for that matter) rebel against God?
"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!
t was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn’t ask anyone’s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.
It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being THE Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!
It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God," and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE), a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:
And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Savior BEFORE the foundation of the world:
Is anyone so naive as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn’t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve’s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.
as for your second question when will we be totally like God and have a truly "free will"?When Christ turns the kingdom over to Father and God becomes all in all but by then we will be the faithful servant choosing only to do God's will so it is kind of a moot point.
How many thieves are there?how many children does Satan have?Jesus said---Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
much love------------knuckle
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jul 19, 2008 14:00:27 GMT -5
i believe we have a free will, that is to either except God's will or not.
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Post by righteousone on Jul 20, 2008 7:06:15 GMT -5
ITS FREE WILL. Cepha makes perfect sense in when he said if one thinks God created man only to punish him just to like him, makes sense to me.
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Post by redsoxfan on Jul 22, 2008 12:53:40 GMT -5
Is that it Knuckle? Did the King James Bond penguin make you do it?
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Post by knuckle on Jul 22, 2008 13:07:03 GMT -5
Hi Sox----------------
I thought I would bring a little discussion over here---Cepha and Teresa wee getting bored.
Where is Cepha by the way?He must be on the Island working on his house it isn't like him not to go a day without posting.
much love-----------knuckle
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Post by righteousone on Jul 23, 2008 19:24:13 GMT -5
Knuckle, just wondering, do you ever have any answers that do not require Scripture? Remember the people who didn't have a bible because the bible wasn't printed til much later...
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Post by teresahrc on Jul 24, 2008 6:26:05 GMT -5
Free will is true and predestination is true because the Bible teaches both.
Still doesn't change how we are to live our lives.
teresa
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Post by knuckle on Jul 24, 2008 7:57:52 GMT -5
Hi R1---------
I base my belief on scripture --- I take the bible as a personal letter written from God to man and I believe it to be true in it's totality.
For instance,the Baptist church I attend believe in the rapture because of the verses in Thess. and Matthew 24 and if one read just those verses then it does look as if some folk will be taken and some will be left but if one reads the bible in its entirety it is evident that these verses are not talking about a single future event that they are talking instead about the right here,right now and how some accept Christ readily and eagerly and others who hear the exact same message do not.
Hi Teresa---------
is your nick name T-bird by any chance? any way,you are correct,from inside creation it changes little about our lives it does change how we are judged though
God's will is unquestionably our good but because we are each unique we are handled differently------Knuckle and Teresa are here this morning talking about Jesus on a chat board because that is what knuckle and Teresa need in their life at the same time others,because of their uniqueness are out there in the world and reject and deny Jesus because that is what they need now to bring them to repentance later.From inside the box it looks like each group made it's own decision but those choices were all caused choices.
You ask why it mattered to me if I believed all would be saved any way----because I don't know that it might be because knuckle tells some one about Jesus in the parking lot of wal-mart that they pick up a bible for the first time in their life or maybe go to church again for the first time since they were a little kid.If God wants 15 minutes of my time to start a series of caused choices in some ones life,I am more than happy to give it to Him.That said,if knuckle wasn't willing then God would send a Teresa to do it.
much love----------knuckle
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Post by redsoxfan on Jul 24, 2008 16:45:17 GMT -5
Hi Sox---------------- I thought I would bring a little discussion over here---Cepha and Teresa wee getting bored. Where is Cepha by the way?He must be on the Island working on his house it isn't like him not to go a day without posting. much love-----------knuckle Heya Knucks, Yeah they seem ready for a debate, I had this one with KJB before. He made great arguments that were just flawed. Flawed in no other way than they just seemed to contradict the nature of God that one gets when they read the bible. We could and did both quote scripture but it was a never ending debate. Eventually I just got tired of it. So are you a non-free will guy or just looking to make discussion? Not sure about Cepha. Who knows Life might have gotten in the way for him for a few days. ~RSF77 |
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Post by knuckle on Jul 24, 2008 17:38:22 GMT -5
Hi Sox----------------
I am thoroughly convinced that God is in control but like I responded to Teresa, man never sees it.
much love-----------knuckle
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