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Post by watchman on Apr 19, 2009 13:42:08 GMT -5
I will go with what Genesis 1:27 says rather than Webster.  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 19, 2009 13:43:02 GMT -5
So, the Bible "alone" is not neccessary for salvation? One needs other things? (Introduction to the story of Christ, evangelization, structured teachings aka "doctrines", etc...) Uh...what? The message of the Gospel is necessary for one to be Saved. This can be told by people...but best if read from the Word Itself. Not always best. Remember Philip and The Ethiopian? He read the scriptures, but still didn't understand it. So, The Holy Spirit moved Philip to go to The Ethipian to teach him what the scriptures meant. Hence, scripture alone was not enough to convince the Ethiopian and The Holy Spirit didn't do it either. Instead, The Holy Spirit guided another man to go and to teach the Ethiopian.  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 19, 2009 13:45:17 GMT -5
Not only that, Satan would use scripture to mis-interpret scripture when he was trying to seduce Christ into sin by using...scriptures. So, one could be misled into misinterpreting what they read. There is no question that satan purposely misinterprets scripture and then uses his ministers to promote this false interpretation, whether they know they are ministers of satan or not is debatable. I would say some do and some don't I'd say that some "think" they are self-convinced they are doing God's work but are doing Satan's. And, that there are those doing Satan's work in full knowledge of it. Me? I don't know exactly who I'm serving. I don't feel called to minister, to represent God or to do anything on His behalf. When I'm wrong, it's all me. When I'm right, it's all God. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 19, 2009 13:47:32 GMT -5
Amen to that! You got him good. (not sarcastic) Speaking of which, this is Divine Mercy Sunday Isn't it? I couldn't go to Church because my daughter is sick. peace Thou art wrongeth! I proved how God created man first then made woman not from scratch, but from what He had already created (man). And, even in that verse, it literally says that God created " him" (meaning Adam). LOL! (Oh yeah! Mercy Sunday! Wow! I think that they were thinking about me when they made this one up! I need it bad!)  |
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Post by watchman on Apr 19, 2009 13:48:52 GMT -5
There is no question that satan purposely misinterprets scripture and then uses his ministers to promote this false interpretation, whether they know they are ministers of satan or not is debatable. I would say some do and some don't I'd say that some "think" they are self-convinced they are doing God's work but are doing Satan's. And, that there are those doing Satan's work in full knowledge of it. This is sad but true.  |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 19, 2009 13:50:25 GMT -5
Not always best. Remember Philip and The Ethiopian? He read the scriptures, but still didn't understand it. So, The Holy Spirit moved Philip to go to The Ethipian to teach him what the scriptures meant. Hence, scripture alone was not enough to convince the Ethiopian and The Holy Spirit didn't do it either. Instead, The Holy Spirit guided another man to go and to teach the Ethiopian. Scripture alone is enough...he probably wouldve gotten it if he thought about it longer. God does use Saved men and women to witness to Lost men and women. To tell them the Gospel as it is in the Word, lead them to verses, and share their testimony. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 19, 2009 13:52:25 GMT -5
It does not bother me that Pal was talking about the O.T even the Septuagent, or even if he was speaking of his own doctrine. It still remains that he stated that the doctrine is contained in scripture and that all scripture is useful for doctrine for reproof of that doctrine ect... Right...all scriptures up until the point that he said that statement. What about what was written after that? There is no mention of those scritpures (one would have to retroactively apply what was said before they were written to the scriptures that would come "after" they were written which would take an unBiblical authority to do so...namely, one's own self). Of course we agree on the infalliblity of the NT. However, for me to apply something to things that were written after Paul's statement would take me having to discern for myself what to include (not to go by what is actually written in scripture. I'd have to apply my own rules to that statement (which I cannot do...I can only accept what it written there. That Paul says that all scripture is what it is, but within reason, I have to acknowledge that Paul never mentioned future scripture). |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 19, 2009 13:58:26 GMT -5
To just trust a book is idolatry. That's placing one's faith in an inaminate object when even that object is the product of human hands that could've deleted or added words/phrases/books to it. The Bible is just a book to you? To me it is the living breathing word of an Holy God. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heartThe "Word of God" is written on man's heart (not just on paper with ink). A book is just a book. Nothing more. Just as a Rosary is just a Rosary, an altar just an altar, etc... Jesus puts it best, what makes the altar holy? The altar itself? Or the sacrifice? The sacrifice of course. Same for an object known as a book. It is nothing. It is paper and ink that can be manipulated. I can produce a bible and insert that Jesus rode a bicycle to Temple. Even though it's not true, it's now in there. For somebody who automatically accepts what is written in The Bible to believe that, they would have to place more value in the book itself than in the guidance of The Holy Spirit. Every man might not have The Holy Bible, but every man has The Word of God written on their hearts. "A" bible is just a sacramental (a tool used in worship) as are altars, incense, candles, holy water, annointing oil, etc... It is an object. As was the idol of the Serpent on the pole in The Desert that Jesus Christ compared Himself to. They are "things". But The Word of God is not a tangible "thing" that can be manipulated. If you took away my church, my Priest, my holy water, my Bible, everything that I use to worship God, I could still worship Him...even if I were left naked on the ground. The only reason you or any Christian recognizes what is written on a piece of paper in a book with the title "Holy Bible" on it is because God allows you to recognize it as truth or not. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 19, 2009 14:16:31 GMT -5
Scripture alone is enough...he probably wouldve gotten it if he thought about it longer. I don't know. I don't think that there is a time limit on how long it takes to "get it". If The Holy Spirit wants you to know it, you will know it. I don't think that you have to think about it for 17 minutes to get it. I could read the same scripture a hundred times and get 47 different messages from it depending on whether God allows me that wisdom or whether I'm on my own in reading it or whether Satan is trying to trick me. That's why I try to be extremely careful about what I read and how I interpret it. However, I have the luxury of believing that God guides men through The Holy Spirit to teach us as scripture states with The Ethiopian in that example I gave you. Jesus used unsaved men and women as examples to those He was trying to save (remember The Samaritans) even in the same Gospels. Thing is with me, I didn't come to Christ through the preaching of a man chosen by God or not, nor through a book. Christ reached out to me directly (no Bible, no preacher, no C/church, etc...). Why? Because I called out to Him. I came to Him. Then, He revealed Himself to me. Then, He led me to His Church, His chosen to teach me (Priests, The Magisterium, etc...) and to whatever else He wanted to for me to grow closer to Him. See, in my opinion, God knows how we are (that we need to touch, taste, see, hear and feel). So, God accomodates us. And, God loves those things too. The Angels praise Him eternally, the smell of incense pleases God, I'm sure when one of us repents, He loves to hear that. I'm also sure that when we grow closer together as His children, this makes Him feel better about us. Again, us being made in His own image, maybe we just reflect what He is in an imperfect way. So, that being said, He has different methods for reaching His lost sheep (some through preaching, some through the written Word, some through miracles, some by direct contact [as in my case], etc...). I don't think that there is any one way that God reaches out to us, but several ways according to the individual. |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 19, 2009 14:36:44 GMT -5
Hm. I believe the Word never returns void. Ever.
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 19, 2009 14:41:30 GMT -5
Not always best. Remember Philip and The Ethiopian? He read the scriptures, but still didn't understand it. So, The Holy Spirit moved Philip to go to The Ethipian to teach him what the scriptures meant. Hence, scripture alone was not enough to convince the Ethiopian and The Holy Spirit didn't do it either. Instead, The Holy Spirit guided another man to go and to teach the Ethiopian. Scripture alone is enough...he probably wouldve gotten it if he thought about it longer. God does use Saved men and women to witness to Lost men and women. To tell them the Gospel as it is in the Word, lead them to verses, and share their testimony. But how would he have "gotten it"? He was reading the Old Testament. If Philip hadn't told him about Jesus' death and resurrection, then how could he have "figured it out"? He was going back to Ethiopia. Maybe he would have heard the gospel after other Ethiopians came and told him from other Apostles? Why would Jesus tell the Apostles to go into all the world and preach, baptize and make disciples if all we need is the Old Testament to learn about Jesus? Obviously, it needs explanation, not by any old bloke, but first the Apostles and then those to whom the Apostles entrusted. Otherwise, you may as well just delete the "Great Commission" from Matthew's gospel. teresa |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 19, 2009 14:45:29 GMT -5
Teresa- Oh ok. Yes, before the NT was written, people had to do a heck of a lot more preaching and other signs.
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 19, 2009 14:50:01 GMT -5
Cepha, here is a verse you might like: 27Finally, the woman died. (Matthew 22) Oh, here is my favorite one that talks about gender roles: 27 At her feet he sank, he fell; there he lay. At her feet he sank, he fell; where he sank, there he fell—dead. (Judges 5) teresa |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 19, 2009 14:51:56 GMT -5
Do they still need to do preaching and signs? Or is the Bible all that's needed?
t
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 19, 2009 14:52:17 GMT -5
haha, nice.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 19, 2009 14:52:24 GMT -5
Teresa- Oh ok. Yes, before the NT was written, people had to do a heck of a lot more preaching and other signs. Well, people had the OT and they still rejected Jesus Christ as The Messiah, so that alone is proof that scripture alone is not enough. Agree? Disagree? |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 19, 2009 14:54:09 GMT -5
Teresa- The Word is all that is necessary. But preaching is a verrrrryyyy good thing to do. Signs are no longer needed, thus do not exsist.
Cepha- Disagree. Many accepted Christ, many denied Him.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 19, 2009 15:06:22 GMT -5
Teresa- The Word is all that is necessary. But preaching is a verrrrryyyy good thing to do. Signs are no longer needed, thus do not exsist. Cepha- Disagree. Many accepted Christ, many denied Him. But The Jews had The Word AND Preaching...they still denied Christ. So if The Word alone wasn't enough then, what makes the difference today? Back then, they actually saw Christ and rejected Him. What do Believers have today that non-Believers didn't have? The Sacrifice on The Cross. |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 19, 2009 15:14:18 GMT -5
If the Word is all that is necessary and it interprets itself, then it would almost seem wrong to preach a sermon about the Bible. Instead, just read the Bible. Just quote it word for word without explaining anything.
Where in the Bible does it say that "signs" no longer exist? Until Christ returns there will be the need for "signs". I assume you are talking about prophecy, tongues, healing etc. ? I don't think that you have to practice signs yourself, but they are definitely real and in use today. (there are also counterfeit signs) You don't have to be afraid of anything that is of the Holy Spirit.
peace
teresa
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Post by Cepha on Apr 19, 2009 15:18:22 GMT -5
I guess it all boils down to this...who told you that scripture interprets scripture?
See?
Right there alone that's something that was told to you, not read in The Bible.
(You being generic, not at anybody specific)
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