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Post by Cepha on Apr 20, 2009 10:35:49 GMT -5
I also believe the KJV is without error. I believe the KJV, and the NKJV are without error. Now after that I think many of the other''translations'' are suspect. "Which" KJV/NKJV"? Do you believe that the men who created them were under the guidance of The Holy Spirit? I ask because I've heard some people say that KJ's was guided by The Holy Spirit (and I've read some bad things about KJ himself from Protestant websites leading me to wonder how The Spirit could use such a man in It's work). |
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Post by watchman on Apr 20, 2009 10:39:01 GMT -5
I believe the KJV, and the NKJV are without error. Now after that I think many of the other''translations'' are suspect. "Which" KJV/NKJV"? Do you believe that the men who created them were under the guidance of The Holy Spirit? I ask because I've heard some people say that KJ's was guided by The Holy Spirit (and I've read some bad things about KJ himself from Protestant websites leading me to wonder how The Spirit could use such a man in It's work). Kj had nothing to do with having the Bible translated it was simply named after him. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 20, 2009 10:41:08 GMT -5
Kj had nothing to do with having the Bible translated it was simply named after him. Didn't he order it be done? |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 20, 2009 10:43:08 GMT -5
Is this true? The king gave the translators instructions designed to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its beliefs about an ordained clergy.
The translation was by 47 scholars, all of whom were members of the Church of England.
In common with most other translations of the period, the New Testament was translated from the Textus Receptus (Received Text) series of the Greek texts.
The Old Testament was translated from the Masoretic Hebrew text, while the Apocrypha were translated from the Greek Septuagint (LXX), except for 2 Esdras, which was translated from the Latin Vulgate.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorized_King_James_Version |
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Post by watchman on Apr 20, 2009 11:18:39 GMT -5
Kj had nothing to do with having the Bible translated it was simply named after him. Didn't he order it be done? He may have? |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 20, 2009 11:24:03 GMT -5
Didn't he order it be done? He may have? I ask because it's my understanding that he did. Since a Protestant or non-Catholic Christian would know better than me, I won't assume. Do you think (if he did) that he did this under the guidance of The Holy Spirit? |
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Post by watchman on Apr 20, 2009 11:36:06 GMT -5
I believe the translators were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and yes I believe it was God's will for the Bible to be translated to English.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 20, 2009 12:03:05 GMT -5
I believe the translators were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and yes I believe it was God's will for the Bible to be translated to English. The first Bible in English was translated in the 6th Century already (900 years before the KJV). If you don't mind me asking, what convinces you that those who created the KJV of The Bible were guided by The Holy Spirit? Although John Wycliff is often credited with the first translation of the Bible into English, there were, in fact, many translations of large parts of the Bible centuries before Wycliff's work.
Toward the end of the seventh century, the Venerable Bede began a translation of Scripture into Old English (also called Anglo-Saxon).
Aldhelm (AD 640–709), likewise, translated the complete Book of Psalms and large portions of other scriptures into Old English.
In the 11th century, Abbot Ælfric translated much of the Old Testament into Old English.
The English Bible was first translated from the Latin Vulgate into Old English by a few select monks and scholars.
Such translations were generally in the form of prose or as literal translations above the Latin words.
As time went on, however, English translations became more frequent into the evolving Middle English.
All of the translations made the Bible more accessible to the public, both to those who were literate and through oral interpretation.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_translations_of_the_Bible#Old_English_translations |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 20, 2009 13:49:38 GMT -5
As far as I know King James ordered the original manuscripts of the Bible be translated into English. 1611 I think.
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Post by watchman on Apr 20, 2009 14:48:20 GMT -5
I believe the translators were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and yes I believe it was God's will for the Bible to be translated to English. The first Bible in English was translated in the 6th Century already (900 years before the KJV). If you don't mind me asking, what convinces you that those who created the KJV of The Bible were guided by The Holy Spirit? I know that the KJV is the infallible word of God, the same way that I know Christ is Messiah, and that I know God exist. The Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit that it is true. This may or may not be good enough for you, but it for me.  |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 20, 2009 15:14:47 GMT -5
I also believe the KJV is without error. For real? I've never heard that belief before. Do you mean the original KJV? Or all subsequent editions? Why do you believe that? What about people that don't read English? Are their Bibles without error? How do they aquire a KJV in their language since it is an English translation? teresa |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 20, 2009 16:45:35 GMT -5
I believe that only the original manuscripts of the Bible are without error, but that doesn't mean that God doesn't speak to us in English, or Spanish, Japanese, etc. But we do have to be mindful of the possibility of human error in translation. (or human bias) teresa www.bibletexts.com/kjvtexts.htm
The following comprises a very small sampling of words, phrases, and verses that were not in the original Greek texts of the New Testament:
Mat 5:22 - without a cause
Mat 6:4,6,18 - openly
Mat 6:13 - For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. (Please note the following:)
In the Textual Commentary of the Greek New Testament, Second Edition (NY: United Bible Societies, 1994, page 13-14), Bruce Metzger writes, "The ascription ["a form of prayer ascribing praise to God spoken by a minister, usually after a sermon" (Webster's Third)] at the close of the Lord's Prayer occurs in several forms... The absence of any ascription in early and important [ancient manuscripts], as well as early patristic commentaries on the Lord's Prayer... suggests that an ascription, usuallly in a threefold form, was composed (perhaps on the basis of 1 Chr 29:11-13) in order to adapt the Prayer for liturgical use in the early church."
Mat 12:35 - of the heart
Mat 17:21 - (omit entire verse)
Mat 18:11 - (omit entire verse)
Mat 19:29 - or wife
Mat 23:14 - (omit entire verse)
Mat 27:35 - that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
Mar 7:16 - (omit entire verse)
Mar 7:24 - and Sidon
Mar 8:26 - nor tell it to any in the town.
Mar 9:23 - believe
Mar 9:29 - and fasting
Mar 9:44 - (omit entire verse)
Mar 9:46 - (omit entire verse)
Mar 10:21 - take up the cross
Mar 10:24 - for them that trust in riches
Mar 10:29 - or wife
Mar 11:26 - (omit entire verse)
Mar 13:33 - and pray
Mar 15:28 - (omit entire verse)
Mar 16:9-20 - (please note the following:)
Bruce Metzger (ibid., page 105-106) writes, "On the basis of good external evidence and strong internal considerations it appears that the earliest ascertainable form of the Gospel of Mark ended with 16.8. At the same time, however, out of deference to the evident antiquity of the longer ending and its importance in the textual tradition of the Gospel, the Committee [the Editorial Committee of the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament, of which Dr. Metzger is a member] decided to include verses 9-20 as part of the text, but to enclose them within double square brackets in order to indicate that they are the work of an author other than the evangelist."
Luk 1:28 - blessed art thou among women
Luk 5:17 - them
Luk 7:28 - prophet
Luk 8:45 - and all they that were with him
Luk 9:54 - even as Elijah did
Luk 9:55-56 - and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
Luk 11:11 - ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he
Luk 17:3 - against thee
Luk 17:36 - (omit entire verse)
Luk 22:68 - nor let me go
Luk 23:17 - (omit entire verse)
Luk 24:42 - and of a honeycomb
Joh 3:13 - which is in heaven
Joh 3:34 - unto him
Joh 4:24 - a
Joh 5:3 - waiting for the moving of the water
Joh 5:4 - (omit entire verse)
Joh 6:47 - on me
Joh 7:53-8:11 - (please note the following:)
Bruce Metzger (ibid., page 187-189) writes that there is overwhelming and conclusive evidence that the text from John 7:53 to John 8:11 was not part of the original text of John. It was absent from important early and diverse New Testament manuscripts. He writes, "At the same time the account has all the earmarks of historical veracity. It is obviously a piece of oral tradition which circulated in certain parts of the Western church and which was subsequently incorporated into various manuscripts at various places... Although the Committee was unanimous that [this passage] was originally no part of the Fourth Gospel, in deference to the evident antiquity of the passage a majority decided to print it, enclosed within double square brackets, at its traditional place following Jn. 7.52."
Act 5:32 - his
Act 8:37 - (omit entire verse)
Act 9:5 - it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks
Act 9:6 - And he trembling and astonished, said, Lord what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him,
Act 15:34 - (omit entire verse)
Act 20:15 - and tarried at Trogyllium
Act 22:9 - and were afraid
Act 23:30 - Farewell.
Act 24:6-8 - and would have judged according to our law. But the chief captain Sysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands, commanding his accusers to come unto thee:
Act 28:29 - (omit entire verse)
Rom 3:22 - and upon all
Rom 8:1 - who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit
Rom 11:6 - But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 14:9 - and rose
Rom 14:21 - or is offended, or is made weak
Rom 16:24 - (omit entire verse)
1Co 6:20 - and in your spirit, which are God's
1Co 7:5 - fasting and
1Co 10:28 - for the earth is the Lord's and the fulness therof
1Co 15:47 - the Lord
Gal 2:6 - in conference
Gal 5:21 - murders
Eph 5:30 - of his flesh, and of his bones
Col 1:2 - and the Lord Jesus Christ
Col 2:2 - and of the Father, and
2Th 2:4 - as God
Heb 3:6 - firm unto the end
Heb 9:9 - then
Heb 11:13 - and were persuaded of them
Heb 12:20 - or thrust through with a dart
1Pe 4:14 - on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified
1Jo 5:7-8 - in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth
1Jo 5:13 - and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God
Rev 1:11 - I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,
Rev 2:15 - which thing I hate
Rev 6:1,3,5,7 - and see
Rev 11:1 - and the angel stood
Rev 14:5 - before the throne of God
Rev 21:24 - of them which are saved
Rev 22:21 - Amen. NOTE: When you are privately reading the King James Version, in order to more nearly read what was in the original text of the New Testament, do not read the words, phrases, and verses listed above. They are not based on the original Greek texts of the New Testament. (In my own King James Version Bibles, I have identified these words, phrases, or verses by enclosing them in square brackets, which I have written with a red pen. This enables me to easily and consistently recognize what not to read.) www.bibletexts.com/kjvtexts.htm |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 20, 2009 17:36:34 GMT -5
For real? I've never heard that belief before. Do you mean the original KJV? Or all subsequent editions? Why do you believe that? What about people that don't read English? Are their Bibles without error? How do they aquire a KJV in their language since it is an English translation? teresa The KJV translated and copied from 1611. And that's part of the reason I believe it is the preserved Word of God...English is the quickly becoming, if not already, the primary language of the entire planet. |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 20, 2009 18:22:10 GMT -5
Please understand, I'm not trying to "wreck" anyone's faith. I presume that your faith is in a person and not in a book though.
The KJV from 1611 had many errors and was constantly revised, even in 1611. The word of God itself doesn't have errors but translations inevitably do.
Also, you need to know that the original 1611 version contained the "Apocrapha", books that are no longer included in the KJV.
Why is there no KJV in Spanish or any other language? How did this religious linguocentrism come to be?
Instead, wouldn't it be better to learn Greek so that you could read the earliest possible manuscripts?
peace
teresa
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Post by watchman on Apr 20, 2009 18:31:47 GMT -5
I am asking, not accusing....Are you capha or Teresa claiming that the Bible (KJV in particular) is not inerrant?
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 20, 2009 18:53:44 GMT -5
What I know for SURE is that the original scriptures are without error.
Even if there is an error in translations, I believe it is still God's Word (even KJV), because God can still speak even in spite of human error.
I think the KJV translators did the best that they could, but there were still errors, that's why they had to continually revise it.
There are also problems with the manuscripts (greek) that they used to translate(it wasn't their fault, it was all they had at the time)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is a list of Bible verses in the New Testament that are present in the King James Version (KJV) but absent from most modern Bible translations completed after 1881 which are based upon the earliest manuscripts, see also Novum Testamentum Graece. They are, however, present in the New King James Version, published in 1979.
Most modern textual scholars consider these verses interpolations (exceptions include advocates of the Byzantine or Majority text). In any case, the verse numbers have been reserved even in translations which omit the verses. It should be noted that apart from omitted entire verses, there are many omitted words and phrases in the modern translations such as the Comma Johanneum and the endings of Mark 16 that are not included in this article.
The Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman notes that some of the most known verses were not part of the original text of the New Testament. "These scribal additions are often found in late medieval manuscripts of the New Testament, but not in the manuscripts of the earlier centuries," he adds. "And because the King James Bible is based on later manuscripts, such verses "became part of the Bible tradition in English-speaking lands."[1]
[edit] List of omitted Bible verses in the New International Version
The designation omitted Bible verses is used here in a technical sense to indicate text for which a verse number has been reserved but which is not present. In particular these specific verses are not in the New International Version (NIV) main text. For some of the verses, there is a possible reasoning for "omission".
Note: In the New International Version, the following verses are absent from the main text, but have been translated for inclusion in the footnotes. An NIV translation has been provided on the page to have a modern translation available. NIV is generally in agreement with the Nestle-Aland editions of the Greek New Testament which relegate such verses to the margin.
Matthew 17:21
KJV: Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
NIV: But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting. [2]
Possible reasoning
It is possible that this verse is a duplicate of Mark 9:29. [3]
Matthew 18:11
KJV: For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
NIV: The Son of Man came to save what was lost. [4]
Possible reasoning
According to Bruce Metzger, this verse was "manifestly borrowed by copyists from Luke 19:10."[5]
Matthew 23:14
KJV: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
NIV: Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Therefore you will be punished more severely. [6]
Mark 7:16
KJV: If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
NIV: If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear. [7]
Mark 9:44/Mark 9:46
KJV: Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
NIV: where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." [8]
Possible reasoning
These two verses are identical to Mark 9:48.
Mark 11:26
KJV: But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
NIV: But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your sins. [9]
Mark 15:28
KJV: And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, "And he was numbered with the transgressors."
NIV: and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "He was counted with the lawless ones." [10]
Luke 17:36
KJV: Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
NIV: Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. [11]
Luke 23:17
KJV: For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.
NIV: Now he was obliged to release one man to them at the Feast. [12]
John 5:4
KJV: For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
NIV: From time to time an angel of the Lord would come down and stir up the waters. The first one into the pool after each such disturbance would be cured of whatever disease he had. [13]
Acts 8:37
KJV: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
NIV: "If you believe with all your heart, you may." The eunuch answered, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." [14]
Acts 15:34
KJV: Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.
NIV: but Silas decided to remain there [15]
Acts 24:7
KJV: But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,
NIV: But the commander, Lysias, came and with the use of much force snatched him from our hands [16]
Acts 28:29
KJV: And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
NIV: After he said this, the Jews left, arguing vigorously among themselves. [17]
Romans 16:24
KJV: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
NIV: May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you. Amen. [18]
If anyone adds or takes away from the Bible, then Yes, it is errant. Not all of it, just the parts that were added. But even so, God can still speak through human error.
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 20, 2009 19:05:40 GMT -5
The KJV didn't add things, other versions took verses out.
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Post by watchman on Apr 20, 2009 19:16:33 GMT -5
You are using the NIV to try and show the error in the KJV. The NIV is one of the most perverted translations out there. The NIV is in error not the KJV.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 21, 2009 8:06:49 GMT -5
The first Bible in English was translated in the 6th Century already (900 years before the KJV). If you don't mind me asking, what convinces you that those who created the KJV of The Bible were guided by The Holy Spirit? I know that the KJV is the infallible word of God, the same way that I know Christ is Messiah, and that I know God exist. The Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit that it is true. This may or may not be good enough for you, but it for me. If a person believes that The Holy Spirit confirms something for them, I don't dare judge that.  Of course, I have the opposite view because of the KJV's history and how it came into existance and the people behind it. But I would never knock a man's faith "in" it being true for them. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 21, 2009 8:07:53 GMT -5
As far as I know King James ordered the original manuscripts of the Bible be translated into English. 1611 I think. That's my understanding of it's historical background too...that King James ordered it to be created. |
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