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Post by teresahrc on Apr 28, 2009 10:58:15 GMT -5
I never said you had to be baptized into the Catholic Church. I said that at the time of St. Augustine, that was the ONLY church.
I do believe that baptism is necessary, but that doesn't have to be at a Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does NOT teach that people must be baptized in a Catholic Church (or by a Catholic etc).
Actually, it is our faith and our baptism that unites us more than anything to each other.
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Post by watchman on Apr 28, 2009 11:04:24 GMT -5
I never said you had to be baptized into the Catholic Church. I said that at the time of St. Augustine, that was the ONLY church. I do believe that baptism is necessary, but that doesn't have to be at a Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does NOT teach that people must be baptized in a Catholic Church (or by a Catholic etc). Actually, it is our faith and our baptism that unites us more than anything to each other. Even at the time of Augustine you did not have to be baptized into the Catholic church. This is a false gospel and unless Augustine repented of his false teaching he could not have been saved. Do we have to be doctrinally correct to be saved? NO. Can we teach a false gospel and still be saved? NO. |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 28, 2009 11:14:47 GMT -5
I don't know much about St. Augustine, watchman. That's why I started this thread.
I'm not about to defend anyone that I hardly know anything about.
But just as a "side note" you also need to look at the context of society at that time. There was an age (for a long time in some places) when the Church, almost be default, was also the Governing authority. Now, I'm not saying I agree with that, but that's just how it was.
They had to do the same duties that say, the US gov. would do, like make laws and defend people etc. To them, heresy was the equivalent of treason, and yes, heretics were treated harshly. Again, I don't agree with that, but there was no concept of what we have today in America, with everyone having their own opinion and expressing it freely. I'm sure many people crossed many lines and did things they shouldn't have because of their culture.
Not much has changed with us today. There are some people who are able to remain untainted from their culture, but many of us (yes even good Christians) still get dirty feet sometimes from walking through all the mud and garbage in this world.
For me, this is just one example, I had a "revelation" about wearing a bathing suit. My whole life I'd just go swimming, etc. not really thinking about it, but last year I threw my bathing suit away. I'm not saying that everyone that wears a bathing suit is bad, but for me, I just don't get how (according to our culture) it is not OK to go around like that any time, but suddenly if there is a pool of water, it is OK to be immodest.
I'm not quite sure what I'm going to swim in for the rest of my life, but I no longer want to live with such inconsistencies. There may be other things in my life that I haven't realized are wrong because of the culture, but hopefully God will show me those things too.
teresa
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Post by watchman on Apr 28, 2009 11:37:51 GMT -5
Not to side track the issue, but I agree with you about bathing suits,depending on your opinion of immodest. My wife were a bathing suit that covers her shoulders, chest, stomach, thighs. We got it from Wal-Mart they are out there if you search for them.
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 28, 2009 14:03:55 GMT -5
I've never seen a bathing suit like that, but maybe I'll look into it because my kids love to swim.
Personally, I wish men would be more modest too!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do you think it is a "false gospel" to teach people to be baptized?
You don't believe in baptism?
You think that anyone that teaches any error is automatically condemned?
Do you think this is a false teaching:
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16
Do you think that Acts 22 is a "false gospel"?
10And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. 11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
12And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
peace
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Post by watchman on Apr 28, 2009 17:45:58 GMT -5
I've never seen a bathing suit like that, but maybe I'll look into it because my kids love to swim. Personally, I wish men would be more modest too!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why do you think it is a "false gospel" to teach people to be baptized? You don't believe in baptism? You think that anyone that teaches any error is automatically condemned? #1 I do not think teaching baptism is wrong. I think we all should be baptized. I think we are saved by grace through faith not baptism, but any one that refuses baptism after salvation is in rebellion therefore not saved. #2 I do not think that all who teach incorrect doctrine are automatically condemned. #3 I do think any teaching a false gospel will be condemned unless they repent. #4 I believe teaching that you must be baptized into the Catholic church as Augustine did is a false gospel. This is my opinion, and it will be hard pressed for you to change it. So maybe you can just agree to disagree.  |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 28, 2009 19:23:47 GMT -5
I pretty much agree with you on most of #1, 2 and 3
(Except if you read the book of James you will see that you cannot separate faith and "works", anyway, baptism isn't a work that we do, it is something that God does to us--it IS grace)
#4 So, you think St. Augustine should have told people to be baptized into an Arian sect or something? "Catholic" means universal, meaning the whole body of Christ. If that is the word St. Augustine used, then Amen.
You know that baptism is baptism into the Body of Christ, the Church. Your can't just be baptized into Christ, because you can't separate Christ from His body.
To say that the Church is now and has only been ONLY invisible is completely unbiblical. There is a Church, founded on the Apostles and prophets, with Christ as the cornerstone. He appointed real, visible prophets, evangelist, teachers, deacons, etc.
Opinions can change, but the truth never changes.
peace
teresa
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Post by watchman on Apr 28, 2009 20:14:43 GMT -5
I am no Arian nor do I agree with the Arians on their stance on the deity of Christ, but I cannot find anywhere in Scripture that says you must believe Jesus to be God to be saved, nor that those that deny the deity of Christ are accused. However the Bible does state those that teach a false gospel is accursed. So for Augustine to say the ''church'' was the way to salvation rather than through Christ, he was in worse error than the Arians who deny Jesus was God.
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Post by Ramon on Apr 28, 2009 21:33:43 GMT -5
I am no Arian nor do I agree with the Arians on their stance on the deity of Christ, but I cannot find anywhere in Scripture that says you must believe Jesus to be God to be saved, nor that those that deny the deity of Christ are accused. However the Bible does state those that teach a false gospel is accursed. So for Augustine to say the ''church'' was the way to salvation rather than through Christ, he was in worse error than the Arians who deny Jesus was God. If one does not believe Jesus is God that he is "accused" since the Apostles taught that he was God, the Church since the beginning has taught Christ was equal to His Father, and the Church in the 4th century gave a clear definition of the Holy Trinity, based on Scriptures and Tradition of the Fathers. Second, perhaps we should start a new thread discussing Baptismal Regeneration. Saint Augustine, like all the Fathers since the 1st Century taught Baptismal Regeneration. Holy Scriptures teaches it as well. Since there was only One Church during Saint Augustine the Blessed time, it is only logical that Baptism can ONLY be perform within the Church, by the Church and not outside the Church. For most Fathers, a Baptism within a heretical sect was invalid because he or she got baptize outside the Church and outside the profession of the Faith of the Apostolic Church. The Church during the Saint Augustine the Blessed time was the only place one could find Christ, the Salvation of humanity, and the Most Pure Mysteries (Sacraments). Unless one go to Apostolic Church, Christ' Body, one could not participate fully in The Holy Mysteries (Sacraments) or be fully in communion with Christ. That is why Saint Augustine the Blessed, like other Fathers, taught that no salvation can be obtain outside the Church, Christ' Body. You can not separate the Church from Christ. "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body." (Saint Paul, Eph 5:23, KJV). One can not have Christ as one's head without first being part of the Church. Saint Augustine the Blessed never said that Christ is not the the Savour of humanity. In fact, if one ever read his writings one will notice that he said the opposite. He did however, believe in Baptismal Regeneration, as Scriptures and the Church taught since the beginning, so he defended the belief that one can not be baptize outside the Church, since the Church is the Body of Christ, and no one will be able to receive the fullness of the grace of the Baptismal Font unless one draws near to Christ through the Church. The Holy Apostles baptize the Early Christians within the Church, within the authority of the Church. It must be noted, however, that the Early Church on certain occasions did receive Baptism from outside the Church, and only gave them either a Profession of Faith to abide by (they had to renounce there heretical beliefs) or be Christmated (or Confirmation) (or both, read the Canons of the Ecumenical Councils for further study). Certain heretics had to be rebaptized, but there were exceptions to this rule. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by watchman on Apr 28, 2009 22:47:28 GMT -5
You will never change my mind. Salvation is through Christ and Christ alone it is not through baptism into any church period. Regardless if it is the only church or not. Being a part or member of that church doesn't matter believing on Christ does.
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Post by Ramon on Apr 28, 2009 23:03:29 GMT -5
You will never change my mind. I guess there is no point in having a debate, now is there? Lets agree to disagree..... In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by watchman on Apr 28, 2009 23:28:12 GMT -5
Yep Check out my post, reply #85 |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 29, 2009 0:10:30 GMT -5
23And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
25So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning? John 8 16For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
17But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."
18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. (John 5) 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. [c] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Messiah. [d] Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2) 7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work. (2 John 1)
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 29, 2009 0:24:33 GMT -5
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your sinful nature was put off when you were circumcised by [c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
(Colossians 2)
Watchman, the Church is the body of Christ. You can't separate the body from the head. You can try and try but the results will always be disasterous.
How would you have heard the gospel, if not through the Church? It's not possible. The Church doesn't "save" us, but Jesus saves us through the Church. That is why it is not possible to be saved apart from the Church. The Church is the body of Christ.
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 29, 2009 5:52:00 GMT -5
I get confused by Catholics. When you all say "Church" do you mean the Catholic Church or the Church as the body of beleivers?
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 29, 2009 8:52:40 GMT -5
That is a good question Emily. Before people split away from the one Church, it would not have been asked. From the Catechism: The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic
811 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."256 These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other,257 indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.
812 Only faith can recognize that the Church possesses these properties from her divine source. But their historical manifestations are signs that also speak clearly to human reason. As the First Vatican Council noted, the "Church herself, with her marvelous propagation, eminent holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in everything good, her catholic unity and invincible stability, is a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefutable witness of her divine mission."258
I. THE CHURCH IS ONE
"The sacred mystery of the Church's unity" (UR 2)
813 The Church is one because of her source: "the highest exemplar and source of this mystery is the unity, in the Trinity of Persons, of one God, the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit."259 The Church is one because of her founder: for "the Word made flesh, the prince of peace, reconciled all men to God by the cross, . . . restoring the unity of all in one people and one body."260 The Church is one because of her "soul": "It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the entire Church, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful and joins them together so intimately in Christ that he is the principle of the Church's unity."261 Unity is of the essence of the Church:
What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her "Church."262
814 From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church's members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. "Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions."263 The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."264
815 What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:
- profession of one faith received from the Apostles;
-common celebration of divine worship, especially of the sacraments;
- apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God's family.266
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268
Wounds to unity
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
Toward unity
820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279 www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#820So to answer your question, Emily, yes, we mean both. Because just physically attending a Catholic Church is not what it means to be Catholic. And not all those who belong to the Church are visibly united. teresa |
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Post by watchman on Apr 29, 2009 9:54:20 GMT -5
23And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
25So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning? John 8 Those were good, however is Jesus telling them they must believe He is God or Messiah here or the Son of God? By the way I believe Jesus to be God, but I have search the scripture many times trying to find any verse that says this belief is a pre requisite for salvation, and I have not been able to. |
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Post by watchman on Apr 29, 2009 9:56:16 GMT -5
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your sinful nature was put off when you were circumcised by [c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
(Colossians 2)
Watchman, the Church is the body of Christ. You can't separate the body from the head. You can try and try but the results will always be disasterous.
How would you have heard the gospel, if not through the Church? It's not possible. The Church doesn't "save" us, but Jesus saves us through the Church. That is why it is not possible to be saved apart from the Church. The Church is the body of Christ.
I am in full agreement Jesus is God. I heard the gospel from my Mama. The Church is all believers not Catholicism. |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 29, 2009 10:32:03 GMT -5
I mean now, in 2009, when a Catholic says "the Church"...do they mean the Catholic Church or the Church-body of believers?
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 29, 2009 10:48:20 GMT -5
I am not part of the Catholic Church...so when a Catholic says "the church" do they exclude those who are not part of it and only those who are?
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