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Post by teresahrc on Apr 29, 2009 10:55:52 GMT -5
The word "Catholic" means universal. So, it means the whole Church--all who are truly part of Christ's body. So, you don't have to be a member of "the Roman Catholic Church" to be a member of the body of Christ.
There are many so-called "Roman Catholics" who are not really part of the Catholic Church, and there are many non-catholics who are "Catholic".
But if we are talking about the teachings, Apostolic ministry, sacraments, etc. then yes, there is a distinction, because those are things that can be measured, studied, confirmed, etc.
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Post by Ramon on Apr 29, 2009 10:58:35 GMT -5
23And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
25So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning? John 8 Those were good, however is Jesus telling them they must believe He is God or Messiah here or the Son of God? By the way I believe Jesus to be God, but I have search the scripture many times trying to find any verse that says this belief is a pre requisite for salvation, and I have not been able to. You posted a passage from one of Saint Paul's writings that said anyone who preaches another Gospel is accused, so preaching that Jesus is not God is "another Gospel" since Christ claim equality with His Father, and the Holy Apostles taught the same thing. Wouldn't you think so? So some false doctrines (another gospel) can be believed but others will cause you to be "accused"? In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 29, 2009 11:03:25 GMT -5
23And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
25So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning? John 8 Those were good, however is Jesus telling them they must believe He is God or Messiah here or the Son of God? By the way I believe Jesus to be God, but I have search the scripture many times trying to find any verse that says this belief is a pre requisite for salvation, and I have not been able to. In this verse, Jesus said that if they did not believe He was the One he claimed to be, they would die in their sins. They asked "Who are you?" and He said, "have I not told you from the beginning?" (another translation) If you read the book of John, it is as plain as day that Jesus is claiming to be God. Although the gospel is written in Greek, it is very obvious that the language Jesus used over and over in John "I AM" and "I AM He" is the same language that God used when He spoke to Moses, that name that was used only by God. That is why they tried to stone Him. When they said it was because "you, a mere man, claim to be God" Jesus did not object to this in any way. |
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Post by Ramon on Apr 29, 2009 11:22:10 GMT -5
Those were good, however is Jesus telling them they must believe He is God or Messiah here or the Son of God? By the way I believe Jesus to be God, but I have search the scripture many times trying to find any verse that says this belief is a pre requisite for salvation, and I have not been able to. In this verse, Jesus said that if they did not believe He was the One he claimed to be, they would die in their sins. They asked "Who are you?" and He said, "have I not told you from the beginning?" (another translation) If you read the book of John, it is as plain as day that Jesus is claiming to be God. Although the gospel is written in Greek, it is very obvious that the language Jesus used over and over in John "I AM" and "I AM He" is the same language that God used when He spoke to Moses, that name that was used only by God. That is why they tried to stone Him. When they said it was because "you, a mere man, claim to be God" Jesus did not object to this in any way. Amen! |
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Post by watchman on Apr 29, 2009 12:38:14 GMT -5
Those were good, however is Jesus telling them they must believe He is God or Messiah here or the Son of God? By the way I believe Jesus to be God, but I have search the scripture many times trying to find any verse that says this belief is a pre requisite for salvation, and I have not been able to. You posted a passage from one of Saint Paul's writings that said anyone who preaches another Gospel is accused, so preaching that Jesus is not God is "another Gospel" since Christ claim equality with His Father, and the Holy Apostles taught the same thing. Wouldn't you think so? So some false doctrines (another gospel) can be believed but others will cause you to be "accused"? In IC.XC, Ramon Teaching that Jesus is not God is a false doctrine not a false gospel. You can believe Jesus is less than deity and still believe the Gospel that He was born of a virgin sent by God to be the sacrificial lamb to take away the sin of the world, that He died and rose again, and that if you believe on Him you will be saved. However to teach that you must do this through the Roman Catholic Church through Baptism into the Roman Catholic Church instead of through faith in Christ alone is a false gospel. |
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Post by watchman on Apr 29, 2009 12:42:52 GMT -5
Those were good, however is Jesus telling them they must believe He is God or Messiah here or the Son of God? By the way I believe Jesus to be God, but I have search the scripture many times trying to find any verse that says this belief is a pre requisite for salvation, and I have not been able to. In this verse, Jesus said that if they did not believe He was the One he claimed to be, they would die in their sins. They asked "Who are you?" and He said, "have I not told you from the beginning?" (another translation) If you read the book of John, it is as plain as day that Jesus is claiming to be God. Although the gospel is written in Greek, it is very obvious that the language Jesus used over and over in John "I AM" and "I AM He" is the same language that God used when He spoke to Moses, that name that was used only by God. That is why they tried to stone Him. When they said it was because "you, a mere man, claim to be God" Jesus did not object to this in any way. This is a very good argument. Just so you know I always believed that you must accept Jesus to be God to be saved, but when I searched for the passage that said so, I could not find it. So I could be persuaded fairly easily, and as I said you do make a good case, but I still feel like He was telling them that they had to believe He was Messiah not God incarnate. |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 29, 2009 13:03:22 GMT -5
Hm, I'm a non-catholic who doesn't want to be a catholic
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 29, 2009 13:42:32 GMT -5
Ok sweetie, don't worry. I'm not telling you to be Catholic.
peace
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 29, 2009 14:04:14 GMT -5
Watchman, this is your opinion. I think that you should carefully look at the gospel according to John ( and the other gospels) and look at everything Jesus claimed about Himself. Also, I recommend studying St. Paul's teachings about what exactly "the gospel" means. He is the one that wrote, saying the Church was not to accept any gospel other than the one they originally received from St. Paul.No, the gospel is not complicated, there are not "secret" things involved etc. But we can't "rewrite" the gospel by explaining it according to our own understanding, and then require others to listen to our own view instead of the actual words of scripture. 3He told them: "Take nothing for the journey—no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic. 4Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them." 6So they set out and went from village to village, preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere. (Luke 9) Here, the Apostles were "preaching the gospel" before Jesus had died and rose again. They were not preaching a "false gospel". 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. (Romans 2) Here, St. Paul says that his "gospel" declares that there will be a day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ. Isn't belief in a day of judgement part of "the gospel"? 17Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God. 18I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— 19by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.(Romans 15) 1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. (1 Corinthians 15) So, according to St. Paul, part of "his gospel" was that Jesus appeared to Peter and the 12, the other brothers and then James and himself. Must someone believe all those things, and if they don't is that a "false gospel"? |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 29, 2009 14:15:13 GMT -5
11I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
(Galatians 1)
What did Jesus say to St. Paul when he saw Him on the road to Damascas?
6"About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?' 8"'Who are you, Lord?' I asked.
" 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. 9My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.
10"'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked.
"'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.'
That is what the Lord said to St. Paul.
Then, he obeyed by going to Damascus.
12"A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13He stood beside me and said, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight!' And at that very moment I was able to see him.
14"Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'
So Jesus told St. Paul to go to Damascas and he would be told what to do. Then, Ananias to him to "be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name"
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Post by Ramon on Apr 29, 2009 20:54:29 GMT -5
Teaching that Jesus is not God is a false doctrine not a false gospel. What's the difference between a false doctrine and a false gospel? Scriptures doesn't make a distinction. Saint Paul said if anyone preach another Gospel than the one they received from him and the other Holy Apostles, they will be accused. Believing that Jesus is not God is believing a "gospel" not preached by the Holy Apostles. You make a distinction between false doctrines and false gospels, but this is not so in Scriptures. You can believe Jesus is less than deity and still believe the Gospel that He was born of a virgin sent by God to be the sacrificial lamb to take away the sin of the world, that He died and rose again, and that if you believe on Him you will be saved. Really? One can not believe Jesus is not God while still believing the above. The important fact about Jesus that separates him from all humanity was that he was God made flesh. He became what he was not, without letting go what he was. An regular human being couldn't be a sacrificial lamb who takes away the sins of the world. I suggest you read the Gospel of John and Saint Paul's Epistles. If one does not follow in the footsteps of the Holy Apostles and accept there teachings, one is accused according to Saint Paul. Saint Paul didn't make a distinction between false doctrines and false gospels. To him, a false gospel is a teaching contrary to the Faith delivered by him and the other Holy Apostles. Christ told the Jews that if they do not believe Him and what He said He was, they will die in there sins (John 8:23-25). This is very clear Watchman. We don't need to find a specific text telling us that if one does not believe Christ is God they are accused. It's clear as day in this Scripture and others. Why do you make such a distinction when Scriptures doesn't? In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Ramon on Apr 29, 2009 20:58:33 GMT -5
Hm, I'm a non-catholic who doesn't want to be a catholic How about a Orthodox? ;D Just joking! ;D In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by watchman on Apr 29, 2009 21:08:55 GMT -5
Teresa giving scripture that says Jesus is God is good but off subject I agree scripture teaches that Jesus is God.
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Post by watchman on Apr 29, 2009 21:10:32 GMT -5
The gospel is Christ's death and resurrection, it is not His deity, and it is definitely not being baptized into the catholic Church.
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Post by Ramon on Apr 29, 2009 21:42:57 GMT -5
The gospel is Christ death and resurrection, it is not His deity, and it is definitely not being baptized into the catholic Church. Forget about being baptized into the Catholic Church, we are not talking about. No one said that. The Gospel includes Christ' deity. Please read the Gospel of John. In 1 John, we are told that one who do not believe Christ came in the flesh, that Jesus is Christ, and does not profess the Father and the Son is a antichrist (1 John 2:22-23, etc). Who ever does not preach the Gospel preached by the Holy Apostles to the Early Christians is accused according to Saint Paul. You still haven't comment of the passage in which Christ told the Jews they will die in there sins if they do not confess who he was (his Deity)! How can the Gospel be only about Christ' Death and Resurrection and not about who he was that made his death and resurrection effective in taking our sins away? One has to confess his Godhead and Humanity before even thinking about talking about his death and resurrection. Also please, explain to us what's the difference between a false doctrine and a false gospel? Scriptures doesn't make a distinction. Why do you make such a distinction? In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by watchman on Apr 29, 2009 21:49:40 GMT -5
The gospel is Christ death and resurrection, it is not His deity, and it is definitely not being baptized into the catholic Church. Forget about being baptized into the Catholic Church, we are not talking about. No one said that. St. Augustine did and that is exactly what me a Teresa have been talking about. |
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Post by watchman on Apr 29, 2009 21:58:29 GMT -5
Also please, explain to us what's the difference between a false doctrine and a false gospel? Scriptures doesn't make a distinction. Why do you make such a distinction? In IC.XC, Ramon The gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ has came, lived and died for our sins, and that He rose again so that through His sacrifice we can be reconciled to the Father. The deity of Christ, The Trinity, baptism, the timing of the rapture, when the Millennium is, eternal security, ect... are all doctrines, not the gospel. |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 29, 2009 22:48:17 GMT -5
Isn't Jesus's diety (that means Jesus is God right?) kind of critical to the Gospel message? If He wasn't God...who cares if he died...tons of men and women died, none of them were God.
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Post by watchman on Apr 29, 2009 22:59:56 GMT -5
Isn't Jesus's diety (that means Jesus is God right?) kind of critical to the Gospel message? If He wasn't God...who cares if he died...tons of men and women died, none of them were God. I agree Jesus is God. However what is someone believed everything you do about Jesus that He is the Son of God,(but not God, kind of like Adam), That He was sent to be the perfect spotless Lamb, That He remained sinless, that He took our place on the Cross, that He rose again, and that He is the only way to be reconciled to the Father. What if they have accepted Him into the heart, confess Him as their Lord, and they serve Him diligently? Do you think the fact that they do not believe Jesus to be God would nullify their Salvation? |
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Post by Ramon on Apr 29, 2009 23:14:35 GMT -5
Forget about being baptized into the Catholic Church, we are not talking about. No one said that. St. Augustine did and that is exactly what me a Teresa have been talking about. I know that Teresahrc already said that one does not have to baptize into the Roman Catholic Church to have a valid baptism (If I have not mistaken I believe that's a official Catholic teaching). Saint Augustine the Blessed did believed one has to baptize by the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic (and I explain why). So by your recent statements, Saint Augustine the Blessed didn't preach another Gospel....... In IC.XC, Ramon |
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