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Post by watchman on May 19, 2009 18:36:54 GMT -5
"sanctified" can also mean "set apart". The unbelieving spouse is not automatically "holy" or "saved", but they do have the special privilege of living with someone who is. They are able to enjoy many of God's blessing sort of via their believing spouse, because God honors their marriage. (the two shall become one) that doesn't mean they will go to heaven if they don't believe, but they have the prayers of the spouse and their example that would hopefully lead them to also believe. thank you Teresa, for bringing some balance to this conversation. |
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Post by Cepha on May 21, 2009 10:08:42 GMT -5
Salvation = getting to the Father. If people are "Saved" without Jesus...where do they go? No my 3rd statement, the one about I won't believe something until I study it. Well, one would have to believe in different heavens to believe that salvation would'nt automatically include being with Jesus. All saved people end up in Heaven. |
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Post by Cepha on May 21, 2009 10:18:05 GMT -5
I don't need any Church Father to tell me what that means...why can't you? So now you just make up doctrines on your own, that contradict scripture regardless of what the Church teaches? That is not very Catholic of you. I dare you to quote anyone Catholic or non catholic, recent or ancient that believe that some one can go to Heaven because their spouse got saved. You will not because you cannot. You are the only person that believes that. How does me being able to know something in scripture automatically equate to me making up my own doctrines? What, you don't believe that God reveals things to people other than Church Leaders?  Is that what you're saying? (please say yes!) And, just because a Church Father "believed" something, that didn't mean that The Church automatically accepted it. I don't have to quote a Church Father supporting something The Bible states to believe The Bible. The Fathers don't confirm The Bible. The Catholic Church does that. Now, ask me to show you where The Church states what I believe and I'll show it to you...oh wait! Already did with the CCC! ;D And...I dare you to show me one Church Father that states contrary to what The Bible states when it says that the unsaved spouse is saved by the saved spouse? Oh yeah, what does "sanctified" mean to you as used by Paul in 1 Cor 7:14? Still waiting for your answer (I used to wonder why you didn't answer it, but now, it's pretty obvious why...). |
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Post by Cepha on May 21, 2009 10:26:12 GMT -5
Oh, I must have you confused with someone else. Ok, so the Bible is lieing to you when ever they called someone "sanctified" (or made holy)? Or when they called people "holy" in it? The Bible lied? No according to you the Bible is lying when it says you must be born again, and when it says you must confess Christ and when it says you must believe in your heart. Yeah, that is what the Bible is lying about according to you at least. You didn't answer the question, did you? I wonder why. Nope, I know. Because you can't answer that question, can you? See, you believe in only parts of The Bible (that you can understand or that you think you can understand), then reject anything else in The Bible that you think contradicts it. Becasue you can't understand how the Bible can say two things and still be truthful that seem to contradict each other, you completely ignore the one you can't understand (I bet you believe that celibacy is not Biblical for Priests, right? Unrelated to topic, but it proves my point because I can show you in scripture where Jesus states it and you'll still deny Jesus' words). Answer questions Watchman...you'll go a lot farther in proving you point than just saying that your adversary is incorrect. See me? I have you cornered right now...you have to answer what you believe "sanctified" means in 1 Cor 7:14 in order for me to let you out of it. Until you do, all you've done is say that I'm wrong without proving why (you could look all you want in every other scripture in The Bible and continue to ignore what 1 Cor 7:14 states, but it won't make it go away...it just further proves how you can't accept 1 Cor 7:14 because you can't understand it). Come to think of it, you still haven't even been able to explain what that verse means, haven't you? I think the closest thing to an answer was you telling us everything it "didn't" mean. When you take a test, you don't get credit for providing every answer that the question doesn't relate to...you only get credit for providing the actual answer... ...let me know when you're ready to stop running around the question and you're actuall ready to answer what sanctified means as used by Saint Paul in 1 Cor 7:14.  |
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Post by Cepha on May 21, 2009 10:28:56 GMT -5
"sanctified" can also mean "set apart". The unbelieving spouse is not automatically "holy" or "saved", but they do have the special privilege of living with someone who is. They are able to enjoy many of God's blessing sort of via their believing spouse, because God honors their marriage. (the two shall become one) that doesn't mean they will go to heaven if they don't believe, but they have the prayers of the spouse and their example that would hopefully lead them to also believe. So you're saying that to you, "sanctified" as used by Saint Paul means that they were set apart? Set apart for what? In that verse, Paul states that "sanctified" means "made holy" as he says that the children ALSO are made holy when talking about the unsaved parent's being "sanctified" (which by the way is another definition of "sanctified" and is the only reference to the use of the word that Paul uses). So, how did you get that the unbelieving spouse is "set apart" when Paul said that it mean "made holy"? And, would God deny a "holy" person from entering Heaven? |
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Post by Cepha on May 21, 2009 10:48:31 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 7:14
"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified in the wife,
and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in the brother:
else were your children unclean; but now are they holy."
Pretty clear to me.
The only reference to the definition of the word "sanctified" that is in The Bible is "holy".
So, in this instance where Paul states that the unbelieving spouses are made sanctified (notice this now how he connects the two), "ELSE" the children were made holy.
Pretty cut and dry.
Besides (Teresa), The CCC literally states that unbelievers can be saved too (as does Romans 2 in The Bible):
And, for those Catholics here who don't believe that non-believers can be saved, read on and accept The Teachings of The Holy Roman Catholic Church and don't agree with Anti-Catholics!
The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 and when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330
842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. the Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. the Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
Accept the OFFICIAL teachings of The Holy Roman Catholic Church that non-believers can be saved!
Accept it!
Bow down to The Church and yield to her teachings!
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Post by Cepha on May 21, 2009 10:48:54 GMT -5
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Post by Cepha on May 21, 2009 10:49:57 GMT -5
"sanctified" can also mean "set apart". The unbelieving spouse is not automatically "holy" or "saved", but they do have the special privilege of living with someone who is. They are able to enjoy many of God's blessing sort of via their believing spouse, because God honors their marriage. (the two shall become one) that doesn't mean they will go to heaven if they don't believe, but they have the prayers of the spouse and their example that would hopefully lead them to also believe. thank you Teresa, for bringing some balance to this conversation. Balance? LOL! She just fell! But I corrected my sister and now that she has the teachings of The Holy Roman Catholic Church stating what I've been saying all along, she can now "adjust" her belief to conform with the scripture. ;D |
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Post by Cepha on May 21, 2009 10:51:43 GMT -5
Thanks emily. It seemed like some of the comments were going a little extreme for me. That's just my view of that verse. peace You notice what you said there? "...going a little extreme FOR ME." Let go...allow the teachings of Mother Church to sink into you and to change your levels of tolerance. Accept her Holy teachings for The Church is perfect and we are not.  |
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Post by teresahrc on May 21, 2009 11:15:45 GMT -5
"sanctified" can also mean "set apart". The unbelieving spouse is not automatically "holy" or "saved", but they do have the special privilege of living with someone who is. They are able to enjoy many of God's blessing sort of via their believing spouse, because God honors their marriage. (the two shall become one) that doesn't mean they will go to heaven if they don't believe, but they have the prayers of the spouse and their example that would hopefully lead them to also believe. So you're saying that to you, "sanctified" as used by Saint Paul means that they were set apart? Set apart for what? In that verse, Paul states that "sanctified" means "made holy" as he says that the children ALSO are made holy when talking about the unsaved parent's being "sanctified" (which by the way is another definition of "sanctified" and is the only reference to the use of the word that Paul uses). So, how did you get that the unbelieving spouse is "set apart" when Paul said that it mean "made holy"? And, would God deny a "holy" person from entering Heaven? You are brave. "Take up the censers out of the burning . . . for they are sanctified" (Nu 16:37). "And the tent shall be sanctified" (Ex 29:43). "Set bounds about the mountain, and sanctify it" (Ex 19:23). "And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the Tabernacle, and all that is therein, and shalt sanctify it, and all the furniture thereof, and it shall be sanctified" (Ex 40:9). "Sanctify the people" (Ex 19:14). "And he sanctified Jesse and his sons" (1Sa 16:5). "And I will sanctify destroyers against thee" (Jer 22:7). "Sanctify the nations against her" (Jer 51:27, 28). "Job sent and sanctified them" (Job 1:5). Sanctified doesn't necessarily mean "morally pure" or "saved" or "going straight to heaven". |
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Post by teresahrc on May 21, 2009 11:20:10 GMT -5
Yeah, so you really think that someone could be married to a believer and yet be "ignorant of the Gospel"? Give me a break. Sounds like you are really taking both the Bible verse and now the Catechism out of context.
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Post by teresahrc on May 21, 2009 11:22:17 GMT -5
Thanks emily. It seemed like some of the comments were going a little extreme for me. That's just my view of that verse. peace You notice what you said there? "...going a little extreme FOR ME." Let go...allow the teachings of Mother Church to sink into you and to change your levels of tolerance. Accept her Holy teachings for The Church is perfect and we are not. Yes, that's right, I have feelings Cepha. The conversation was extreme for me. So what? I accept the teachings of the Church, but not necessarily your interpretation of them.  teresa |
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Post by Cepha on May 21, 2009 11:49:28 GMT -5
You notice what you said there? "...going a little extreme FOR ME." Let go...allow the teachings of Mother Church to sink into you and to change your levels of tolerance. Accept her Holy teachings for The Church is perfect and we are not. Yes, that's right, I have feelings Cepha. The conversation was extreme for me. So what? I accept the teachings of the Church, but not necessarily your interpretation of them. teresa I notice that you didn't refute one teaching I posted about non-believers being able to be saved. Does that mean that you too believe that those who don't believe in Jesus Christ can be saved too? And, if they can be, why would a person married to a Christian be "less" able to be saved? |
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Post by Cepha on May 21, 2009 11:53:21 GMT -5
Yeah, so you really think that someone could be married to a believer and yet be "ignorant of the Gospel"? Give me a break. Sounds like you are really taking both the Bible verse and now the Catechism out of context. You seem to believe that hearing words convinces people. I believe that God reveals Himself to peopl "though" the words, but not the words alone. Without The Holy Spirit, the words are nothing. A person can hear them and not be moved to believe. God moves people to believe. There had not been one man, woman or child that has come to Christ that God didn't first reveal Christ to. So you see, it is God that reveals the "good news", not the reading of words or the hearing of words. There's an old lady on a mountain. She never sinned sexually. She's lived a nun-like life. Never heard The Gospel, but always had a gentle heart. She cared for nature, she never lied to anybody, she lived a good an moral life. She never was baptized. Does she go to heaven or is she condenmed to eternal danmnation forever to burn in hell like all those babies that didn't accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior? |
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Post by teresahrc on May 21, 2009 12:04:54 GMT -5
Who fell?
27 At her feet he sank,
he fell; there he lay.
At her feet he sank, he fell;
where he sank, there he fell—dead.
Judges 5
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Post by emily445455 on May 21, 2009 12:05:34 GMT -5
Missionaries missionaries missionaries. God say "Go" for that exact reason, Cepha.
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Post by teresahrc on May 21, 2009 12:06:56 GMT -5
Yes, I do seem to believe that.
I believe in the guidance of the Holy Spirit too.
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[g]
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"[h] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. (Romans 10)
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Post by emily445455 on May 21, 2009 12:07:39 GMT -5
U should post here more often Cepha...instead of in mass quanitities. Then I don't read it all...or most even.
You didn't answer my question...where do people do after they die if they are "Saved" without accepting Jesus? There is one heaven where God is. Then the universe and the sky.
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Post by teresahrc on May 21, 2009 12:07:48 GMT -5
God will judge. The Church is called to preach though.
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Post by Cepha on May 21, 2009 13:47:10 GMT -5
U should post here more often Cepha...instead of in mass quanitities. Then I don't read it all...or most even. You didn't answer my question...where do people do after they die if they are "Saved" without accepting Jesus? There is one heaven where God is. Then the universe and the sky. I thought I did answer this...all saved souls go to Heaven. Period. And sorry, but I have limited access to computers right now.  |
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