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Post by emily445455 on May 21, 2009 14:20:20 GMT -5
So Jesus was lieing when He said He is the only way and that one must be born-again? Just curious.
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Post by watchman on May 21, 2009 15:27:08 GMT -5
Of course you do not need to be born again, just be married to someone who is lol, hahahah ;D ;D
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Post by emily445455 on May 21, 2009 16:17:06 GMT -5
Of course you do not need to be born again, just be married to someone who is lol, hahahah ;D ;D And all these years I've been praying for my dad. Phew...I can stop know, since my mom is Saved.  |
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Post by watchman on May 21, 2009 22:02:51 GMT -5
lol
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Post by teresahrc on May 21, 2009 22:52:12 GMT -5
Cepha, St. Paul didn't use the word "sanctified" OR "holy", he wrote in GREEK remember?
Let's see what the Greek words mean
The word was "Hagiazo" (transliteration) in 1 Cor. 7:14
It can mean "Holy" but it can also mean "set apart" or "clean"
The same Greek word is used in the following verse:
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. (1 Tim 4)
That verse was talking about FOOD!!
You aren't now going to say that the food that we ask God to "sanctify" is going to be in heaven now are you?
Just accept your defeat.
teresa
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Post by Cepha on May 22, 2009 8:17:59 GMT -5
So Jesus was lieing when He said He is the only way and that one must be born-again? Just curious. Jesus never lies. And... The only way to "what"? To The Father? We've already established that by the time someone comes to Jesus, God has already chosen them, so one is first picked by God then they go to Jesus. God first, Jesus 2nd. |
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Post by Cepha on May 22, 2009 8:46:05 GMT -5
Of course you do not need to be born again, just be married to someone who is lol, hahahah ;D ;D And all these years I've been praying for my dad. Phew...I can stop know, since my mom is Saved. If your father lives a righteous life and pleases God, he will be saved. God doesn't judge man by man's formulas, but by His own and we can never know them. We only know what we are told and what He allows us to know. Oh yeah, and because you pray for Him, God hears your intercessions and takes them into consideration when He judges your father. If you live a righteous life, that will hold more weight with God. And...I just prayed for you and your father that God will bring him (your father) home when the time comes.  |
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Post by Cepha on May 22, 2009 9:00:11 GMT -5
Cepha, St. Paul didn't use the word "sanctified" OR "holy", he wrote in GREEK remember? That's what I'm talking about T! Bring it! You're doing what I do! LOL It "can mean", but what word did Paul use to compare it to in the same scripture? The literal word "holy" when he compared the parent's state of sanctification to the children! So, in this scripture, Paul clearly spells it out as "holy". There is no denying that and there is no need to insert any other definition. Paul literally said the word "holy" (in Aramaic if anything). ;D But! Your going into the actual "word" is an excellent way of looking at it. Again, I do the same thing. In this particular verse however, we have Paul's own words referring to it as "holy". Anything that is consecrated is made "holy" and consecrated food is eaten by the believer and becomes part of him (that which is not passed through him) and when he goes to heaven, so does it. When Priest have Eucharists that are consecrated that aren't taken in communion, they de-consecrate it if their going to discard them after communion for whatever reason. An altar is made holy. Does the altar end up in heaven? Duh? No. But why is it made holy? To symbolize the altar that is in heaven. Now, to use the consecration of human beings and to compare them to inanimate objects is totally out of the context of this discussion, but I answered your question anyway. Now, answer the question I asked...do you believe that God would not allow His holy children into heaven? Yes or no? |
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Post by emily445455 on May 22, 2009 9:24:18 GMT -5
After reading what he wrote about my father's Salvation (or lack thereof), I think it's fair for me to say that Cepha doesn't know much about that topic.
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Post by Cepha on May 22, 2009 9:34:11 GMT -5
After reading what he wrote about my father's Salvation (or lack thereof), I think it's fair for me to say that Cepha doesn't know much about that topic. Then, according to you, neither does 2,000 years of Christianity because what I wrote is what's been believed since the beginning of Christianity. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 22, 2009 9:35:41 GMT -5
Do you mean "Christianity" as in the Catholic Church? If so....then you should already know the answer |
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Post by Cepha on May 22, 2009 9:43:44 GMT -5
After reading what he wrote about my father's Salvation (or lack thereof), I think it's fair for me to say that Cepha doesn't know much about that topic. Oh yeah, it's in The Bible too... (As you read this, understand that Christianity was considered "part of" Judaism...a continuation of it. It was the fullfillment of the scriptures, so here, Gentiles or the un-circumcized, are "non-believers". The "Law" is adherance to God's Word.) Romans 2:17-29 The Jews and the Law
Some of you call yourselves Jews. You trust in the Law and take pride in God. By reading the Scriptures you learn how God wants you to behave, and you discover what is right. You are sure that you are a guide for the blind and a light for all who are in the dark. And since there is knowledge and truth in God's Law, you think you can instruct fools and teach young people.
But how can you teach others when you refuse to learn?
You preach that it is wrong to steal. But do you steal?
You say people should be faithful in marriage. But are you faithful?
You hate idols, yet you rob their temples. You take pride in the Law,
but you disobey the Law and bring shame to God.
It is just as the Scriptures tell us, "You have made foreigners say insulting things about God."
Being circumcised is worthwhile, if you obey the Law.
But if you don't obey the Law, you are no better off than people who are not circumcised.
In fact, if they obey the Law, they are as good as anyone who is circumcised.
So everyone who obeys the Law, but has never been circumcised, will condemn you.
Even though you are circumcised and have the Law,
you still don't obey its teachings.
Just because you live like a Jew and are circumcised doesn't make you a real Jew.
To be a real Jew you must obey the Law. T
rue circumcision is something that happens deep in your heart,
not something done to your body.
And besides, you should want praise from God and not from humans. This is geared towards those who would exclude any other from salvation just because they were non-believers when it says here clearly that those who actually live The Law that is written in their hearts of God (even if they don't have the written law), are justified to God. God would not praise a man who is sinful, so in order for them to be praised by God, they would have to be in a complete state of grace with Him, therefore, they would be allowed into Heaven for God would not condemn the same man he'd praise. |
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Post by Cepha on May 22, 2009 9:45:56 GMT -5
Do you mean "Christianity" as in the Catholic Church? If so....then you should already know the answer Of course. It's the only Christian Church that's been around for 2,000 years and is the only Christian Church that is "universal" (non-denominational). Christians have always believed this. It's just that somewhere in the 16th century, it was Christian Exclusionism was introduced into some sects of Christianity in an attempt to weed out those who could be saved according to man's standards (instead of relying on the revelation of those standards already established). |
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Post by Cepha on May 22, 2009 9:58:32 GMT -5
Do you mean "Christianity" as in the Catholic Church? If so....then you should already know the answer Salvation outside the Church The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as "the universal sacrament of salvation" (CCC 774–776), and states: "The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men" (CCC 780).
Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.
Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.
The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).
Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.
These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).
The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.
However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity. Ignatius of Antioch "Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism [i.e., is a schismatic], he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine [i.e., is a heretic], he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]). Justin Martyr "We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid" (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]). Irenaeus "In the Church God has placed apostles, prophets, teachers, and every other working of the Spirit, of whom none of those are sharers who do not conform to the Church, but who defraud themselves of life by an evil mind and even worse way of acting. Where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace" (Against Heresies 3:24:1 [A.D. 189]). "[The spiritual man] shall also judge those who give rise to schisms, who are destitute of the love of God, and who look to their own special advantage rather than to the unity of the Church; and who for trifling reasons, or any kind of reason which occurs to them, cut in pieces and divide the great and glorious body of Christ, and so far as in them lies, destroy it—men who prate of peace while they give rise to war, and do in truth strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel. For they can bring about no ‘reformation’ of enough importance to compensate for the evil arising from their schism. . . . True knowledge is that which consists in the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place [i.e., the Catholic Church]" (ibid., 4:33:7–8). Clement of Alexandria "Before the coming of the Lord, philosophy was necessary for justification to the Greeks; now it is useful for piety . . . for it brought the Greeks to Christ as the law did the Hebrews" (Miscellanies 1:5 [A.D. 208]). Origen "[T]here was never a time when God did not want men to be just; he was always concerned about that. Indeed, he always provided beings endowed with reason with occasions for practicing virtue and doing what is right. In every generation the wisdom of God descended into those souls which he found holy and made them to be prophets and friends of God" (Against Celsus 4:7 [A.D. 248]). "If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death" (Homilies on Joshua 3:5 [A.D. 250]). Cyprian of Carthage "Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6, 1st ed. [A.D. 251]).
"Let them not think that the way of life or salvation exists for them, if they have refused to obey the bishops and priests, since the Lord says in the book of Deuteronomy: ‘And any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest or judge, whoever he may be in those days, that man shall die’ [Deut. 17:12]. And then, indeed, they were killed with the sword . . . but now the proud and insolent are killed with the sword of the Spirit, when they are cast out from the Church. For they cannot live outside, since there is only one house of God, and there can be no salvation for anyone except in the Church" (Letters 61[4]:4 [A.D. 253]).
"When we say, ‘Do you believe in eternal life and the remission of sins through the holy Church?’ we mean that remission of sins is not granted except in the Church" (ibid., 69[70]:2 [A.D. 253]).
"Peter himself, showing and vindicating the unity, has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved except by the one only baptism of the one Church. He says, ‘In the ark of Noah a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Similarly, baptism will in like manner save you" [1 Peter 3:20-21]. In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! In that baptism of the world in which its ancient wickedness was washed away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water. Likewise, neither can he be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark" (ibid., 73[71]:11).
"[O]utside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism" (Treatise on Rebaptism 10 [A.D. 256]).
Lactantius
"It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. . . . Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance and which takes a health-promoting care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject" (Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13 [A.D. 307]).
Jerome
"Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation. Between heresy and schism there is this difference: that heresy involves perverse doctrine, while schism separates one from the Church on account of disagreement with the bishop. Nevertheless, there is no schism which does not trump up a heresy to justify its departure from the Church" (Commentary on Titus 3:10–11 [A.D. 386]).
Augustine
"We believe also in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church. For heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God; and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor" (Faith and the Creed 10:21 [A.D. 393]).
"[J]ust as baptism is of no profit to the man who renounces the world in words and not in deeds, so it is of no profit to him who is baptized in heresy or schism; but each of them, when he amends his ways, begins to receive profit from that which before was not profitable, but was yet already in him" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:4[6] [A.D. 400]).
"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (ibid., 4:21[28]).
"The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics" (Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]).
"Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, by this single sin of being separated from the unity of Christ, no matter how estimable a life he may imagine he is living, shall not have life, but the wrath of God rests upon him" (ibid., 141:5).
Fulgentius of Ruspe
"Anyone who receives the sacrament of baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic one, receives the whole sacrament; but salvation, which is the strength of the sacrament, he will not have, if he has had the sacrament outside the Catholic Church [and remains in deliberate schism]. He must therefore return to the Church, not so that he might receive again the sacrament of baptism, which no one dare repeat in any baptized person, but so that he may receive eternal life in Catholic society, for the obtaining of which no one is suited who, even with the sacrament of baptism, remains estranged from the Catholic Church" (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).
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Post by emily445455 on May 22, 2009 10:38:28 GMT -5
No way I'm reading that. But, there were Christians outside of the RCC. Considering I don't even consider the RCC to be a Christian church....there had to have been.
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Post by alfie on May 22, 2009 12:46:16 GMT -5
No way I'm reading that. But, there were Christians outside of the RCC. Considering I don't even consider the RCC to be a Christian church....there had to have been. Where in the Bible does it say the Roman Catholic Church is the final authority? |
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Post by alfie on May 22, 2009 13:20:36 GMT -5
1. Since I don't know much about the ECFS, does anyone know if they had Bibles to read? If they did not then you just have writings passed down from one ECF to another ECF that have not been inspired by God.
2.What proof do you have that some of the ECFS were taught by the Apostles?
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Post by emily445455 on May 22, 2009 15:26:46 GMT -5
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Post by teresahrc on May 22, 2009 16:46:24 GMT -5
WHAT?!?!?!?!
You are almost half insane.
First of all, our bodies are going to die and be resurrected. They will be glorified and not just the same old bodies.
Second, where did you come up with this "de-consecration" idea? That's so not true! They would never "discard" the eucharist! If there is any "left over" after communion, the priest consumes it, he doesn't "de- consecrate" it.
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Post by Ramon on May 22, 2009 23:07:36 GMT -5
1. Since I don't know much about the ECFS, does anyone know if they had Bibles to read? If they did not then you just have writings passed down from one ECF to another ECF that have not been inspired by God. 2.What proof do you have that some of the ECFS were taught by the Apostles? 1. They process Scriptural manuscripts of books in the Christian OT, the Gospels, the Epistles, but there was no "Bible Canon" for the first four centuries of Church History. Thereby, some early Christians [Fathers included] believed the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabas, 1 Clement, The Shepherd of Hermas and others were consider to genuine parts of Scriptures. It was settle (Though it took a long time before everyone in various parts of the Church to finally accept the decision) in the four century through various local Councils (i.e., Council of Rome in 382AD). Since the majority of Christians in the Early Church couldn't read, they heard Scriptures being read to them in Church services (i.e., Divine Liturgy, etc) (by the Priests/Bishops), and later "saw" Scriptures (in the Holy Icons). No one said the Writings of the Fathers were inspired, but we [Orthodox] follow what the Fathers agree upon from the past 2,000 years of Church history. The Scriptures doesn't teach Sola-Scriptural (it teaches the opposite), and the Apostolic Church from the past 2,000 years as always follow Scriptures and Tradition (upper "t") (actually we believe just in "Holy Tradition" which includes Scriptures). 2). Historical evidence states so. The Fathers, Early Historians (such as Eusebius of Caesarea), modern Historians/Scholars (Protestants too, such as Philip Schaff, a Major Protestant Scholar) have stated over and over again that Saint Ignatius of Antioch, Saint Polycrap, Saint Clement of Rome were disciples of one or more of the Holy Apostles. If you disagree, provide evidence that contradicts the accepted historical view...... In IC.XC, Ramon |
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