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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 12:16:15 GMT -5
No, it's ok...I was just saying sometimes I just gloss over posts that are in that format and miss things. The Disciples of Christ orally taught others, who orally taught others...until the Bible was complete. Then Disciples taught others through reading the BIble. Trickled down all the way to today. Gasp! Did she just admit ORAL TRADITION? A Catholic teaching that Protestants reject!  |
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Post by Ramon on May 23, 2009 12:24:18 GMT -5
No, it's ok...I was just saying sometimes I just gloss over posts that are in that format and miss things. The Disciples of Christ orally taught others, who orally taught others...until the Bible was complete. Then Disciples taught others through reading the BIble. Trickled down all the way to today. Gasp! Did she just admit ORAL TRADITION? A Catholic teaching that Protestants reject! Don't know, but for most Protestants, the Oral Tradition that the Holy Apostles gave the Early Christians was later written down (so no difference between Oral Tradition and Scriptures), which contradicts Saint Paul in 2 Thes 2:15..... In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 12:41:50 GMT -5
Cepha- We feel very strongly about Discipleship at my church. I am a commissioned Disciple of Jesus Christ.
When the Bible wasn't completed...they either discipled people orally or through what they wrote down (like notes to remember stuff...not Scripture). Then the Bible was complete, so no more need for passing it down orally...which is a bad idea....
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 12:44:45 GMT -5
The Disciples of Christ orally taught others, who orally taught others...until the Bible was complete. Then Disciples taught others through reading the BIble. Trickled down all the way to today. The Early Christians was taught to follow what the Holy Apostles wrote (specially Saint Paul's Epistles) and what they taught them through mouth (not written only) (2 Thes 2:15). Christians was taught through Scriptures and the Living Tradition of the Church. For the first 1,000 years of Church History, people were not taught strictly from the Bible (as if the Early Church believe in the Bible Alone theory). The Early Christians follow Scriptures and the teachings of the Holy Fathers. Check History. In IC.XC, Ramon Not only that, here's what The Apostles taught "before" The Bible was written... The Didache...The Teachings of The 12 Apostles ivanlewis.com/Didache/didache.html |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 12:46:19 GMT -5
Gasp! Did she just admit ORAL TRADITION? A Catholic teaching that Protestants reject! Don't know, but for most Protestants, the Oral Tradition that the Holy Apostles gave the Early Christians was later written down (so no difference between Oral Tradition and Scriptures), which contradicts Saint Paul in 2 Thes 2:15..... In IC.XC, Ramon It's my understanding that Oral Tradition (OT) is not trustworthy. That only the written word of God is to be believed. That is, for SSists (Sola Scriptura). |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 12:47:21 GMT -5
Cepha- We feel very strongly about Discipleship at my church. I am a commissioned Disciple of Jesus Christ. When the Bible wasn't completed...they either discipled people orally or through what they wrote down (like notes to remember stuff...not Scripture). Then the Bible was complete, so no more need for passing it down orally...which is a bad idea.... Let me see if I understand you correctly: Oral Tradition before the Bible, good. Oral Tradition after the Bible, bad. Did I get it right? |
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Post by Ramon on May 23, 2009 12:49:21 GMT -5
Cepha- We feel very strongly about Discipleship at my church. I am a commissioned Disciple of Jesus Christ. When the Bible wasn't completed...they either discipled people orally or through what they wrote down (like notes to remember stuff...not Scripture). Then the Bible was complete, so no more need for passing it down orally...which is a bad idea.... Can you prove that historically? The Church has always follow what Scriptures taught and what the Holy Fathers (i.e., the Holy Apostles Successors, etc) passed down in the Church. The Early Christians follow what the Holy Apostles taught them orally and what they wrote. They did not follow only what was written. Read 2 Thes 2:15. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 12:49:40 GMT -5
Not really.
Oral tradition before the Bible...not good, but it's all they had.
Oral tradition after the Bible....again, not good, but if it's all we have, use it. If all the Bible everywhere are burnt, all of them, they find all the ones Christians hide away somewhere in their house or property. Which I don't think will ever happen..but if it did, spreading the Gospel orally from what you know if all we can do. Under normal circumstances, it should not be used.
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 12:58:59 GMT -5
Not really. Oral tradition before the Bible...not good, but it's all they had. I disagree. Oral Tradition where guided by The Holy Spirit is always good. And always perfect. The Holy Spirit guides one into all truth. When The Holy Spirit spoke through The Prophets, it was "that" that was written down. So, the only written tradition was The 10 Commandments Tablets. Everything that was prophesized was done "orally". But the world was brought to Christ by oral tradition (evangelization). For man-made churches (post 16th century churches), true. But not for The Catholic Church. Jesus gave us The Holy Paraclete to guide our leaders. We don't need to idolize books. Books are objects. They are nothing but paper and ink. The Holy Spirit would not stop talking to one of God's children just because they didn't have a book. It talks to God's children whether they have a book or not.  |
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 13:02:05 GMT -5
Have you ever played telephone? That is what I believe happened with oral Discipleship until the Bible was written.
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 13:03:42 GMT -5
Have you ever played telephone? That is what I believe happened with oral Discipleship until the Bible was written. Then you dont believe in the protection of Christianity by The Holy Spirit. |
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Post by teresahrc on May 23, 2009 13:03:49 GMT -5
 What? Then you are basically saying that the Bible itself is the end product of the "telephone" game?! Are you sure you meant to say that?
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Post by teresahrc on May 23, 2009 13:06:51 GMT -5
Or do you think that the Apostles and their successions really knew what they were talking about and were anointed by God to pass on the truth, but when the Bible was finished (not until at least the 4th century was it compiled into one official book) then suddenly they just turned into crack heads and lost all their authority and ability to pass on truth?
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 13:07:42 GMT -5
No, that's not what I said. Telephone is basically what oral tradition is. The Scriptures are directly from God's mouth, written down exactly by men.
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Post by teresahrc on May 23, 2009 13:46:50 GMT -5
Oh.....
So you believe that God audibly, orally dictated exactly what St. Paul should write to the Churches, and all the rest of the Bible?
Before I argue against that notion, let me allow you to clarify what you mean...
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Post by Ramon on May 23, 2009 13:47:27 GMT -5
No, that's not what I said. Telephone is basically what oral tradition is. The Scriptures are directly from God's mouth, written down exactly by men. So you don't believe Scriptures. Read 2 Thes 2:15. The Early Christians was commanded to follow every thing that the Holy Apostles taught either by written documents or by there mouth (Oral Traditions). Are you saying that when the Holy Apostles pass along the Traditions to the Early Christians before any NT book was written, it was not from God's Mouth? What about in the OT? Before Moses wrote the Torah, God's Chosen People follow God's word through Oral Traditions pass along by the Holy Patriarchs. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 13:49:24 GMT -5
Sure, np. I believe God spoke to men using the HS and they wrote down exactly what they "heard" or whatever happened to them. The BIble is perfect because it is from God.
What people did before the BIble was written was play "telephone". The Disciples told stories about what Christ did and why. Then they told others, and so on. Some getting distorted along the way...that's why I believe the early Christians were considered heretics by our standards. Things got distorted goind from one person to another.
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Post by Ramon on May 23, 2009 15:16:48 GMT -5
What people did before the BIble was written was play "telephone". The Disciples told stories about what Christ did and why. Then they told others, and so on. Some getting distorted along the way...that's why I believe the early Christians were considered heretics by our standards. Things got distorted goind from one person to another. Then you do not believe that the Holy Spirit can protect His Church from error. You do not believe what Christ said in Matthew 16:18. I believe what Saint Paul wrote in 1 Tim 3:15. God has guided his Church to all truth from the past 2,000 years. Saint Paul told Saint Timothy to teach Faithful men who will turn teach others (2 Tim 2:2). I believe, by the authority of Scriptures, that these faithful men passed along the Holy Tradition uncorrupted to later generation, protected by the Holy Spirit. The Church in several occasions, through the Holy Spirit, defended Scriptures and the Holy Tradition of the Fathers (ie.., the First Holy Ecumenical Council of Nicaea). His Church has faithfully guarded the faith of the Holy Apostles, there Holy Successors, and the God-Bearing Fathers/Mothers for 2,000 years. She has defended against those who distorted the Apostolic Truth of Christ' Holy Church in the East. Emily, you really have a low view on God. According to you, he can't even protect his Church from doctrinal error. Messages got corrupted, so no one in the Early Church knew what was the truth. If you believe the Church was corrupted, how come you accept the decision of the Church in the 4th Century concerning the Bible? In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 18:29:04 GMT -5
Ramon, you are right, I do not believe God keeps the RCC free from error. And I also do not believe GOd keeps everyone's doctrines correct, that is why He wrote His Book.
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Post by Ramon on May 23, 2009 19:29:10 GMT -5
Ramon, you are right, I do not believe God keeps the RCC free from error. I was not talking about the RCC! LOL! I am not even Roman Catholic! LOL! And I also do not believe GOd keeps everyone's doctrines correct, that is why He wrote His Book. I choose to follow Scriptures. I believe what Christ said in Matthew 16:18. I believe what Saint Paul wrote in 1 Tim 3:15. God has guided his Church to all truth from the past 2,000 years. Saint Paul told Saint Timothy to teach Faithful men who will turn teach others (2 Tim 2:2). I believe, by the authority of Scriptures, that these faithful men passed along the Holy Tradition uncorrupted to later generation, protected by the Holy Spirit. The Church in several occasions, through the Holy Spirit, defended Scriptures and the Holy Tradition of the Fathers (ie.., the First Holy Ecumenical Council of Nicaea). Christ guided His Church for 10+ years without a NT book! And he guarded his Church for 400 years with a Bible! The Early Christians did not need a Bible to know the Apostolic Faith. Before any NT book was written, they were just Oral Tradition, and even after books were written, Saint Paul told his fellow Christians to hold fast to the Traditions they receive WHETHER it was written down or heard from one of the Holy Apostles, and later there Holy Successors (2 Thes 2:15;cf. 2:2). Before any OT books were written, there was just Oral Tradition. You see? God is not against Sacred Tradition. That is one of the means that he guide his people. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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