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Post by Ramon on May 22, 2009 23:10:56 GMT -5
Where in the Bible does it say the Roman Catholic Church is the final authority? I am not Roman Catholic, but where in the Bible does it say Holy Scripture is the final (and only) authority? It doesn't. That almost begs a debate! In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 8:48:33 GMT -5
No way I'm reading that. But, there were Christians outside of the RCC. Considering I don't even consider the RCC to be a Christian church....there had to have been. Then perhaps, you need to adjust what you define to be a Christian because you have no proof of what you're saying. The fact is, there were no other Christians besides The Catholic Church for the first 16 Centuries of Christianity. You say "there had to have been". Ok, prove it then. And, you didn't have to read "all" of the proofs I posted. You could've just read the first 3 posts. Even one is enough to prove that The Catholic Church is the first Christian Church.  |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 8:53:46 GMT -5
No way I'm reading that. But, there were Christians outside of the RCC. Considering I don't even consider the RCC to be a Christian church....there had to have been. Where in the Bible does it say the Roman Catholic Church is the final authority? Historically speaking, the only Christian "Church" that existed back then was in Rome and it was Catholic. So it could be the only Church that Paul was talking about. Therefore, the Roman Catholic Church is the final authority on upholding (being a "pillar") of the truth. |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 8:58:50 GMT -5
1. Since I don't know much about the ECFS, does anyone know if they had Bibles to read? If they did not then you just have writings passed down from one ECF to another ECF that have not been inspired by God. Excellent question Alfie. No one had a "Bible" to read. No Bible would exist until The Catholic Church created it in the 4th Century. Even the books in The Bible we hold as the inspired word by God were handed down in exactly the manner you describe. It took a Church Council in Nicea for The Church to decide which books would be considered inspired and which weren't. So, according to your logic, even The Bible isn't inspired by God because it did not fall out of the sky all leather bound as a book, but was literally put together by The Catholic Church. By The Church Fathers. History. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarpen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_AntiochPlus, I'll be back with a writing of a Church Father that lists the first Popes of The Catholic Church historically (who are also listed in The Holy Bible). |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 8:59:37 GMT -5
Where in the Bible does it say the Roman Catholic Church is the final authority? I just thought up a really corny joke. "Who died and made the Pope in charge? Cause I know it wasn't Christ!" Hehehehehehe ;D       Ha Ha! Jesus died and left The Pope in charge! Matthew 16:18 John 21 ;D |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 9:00:59 GMT -5
WHAT?!?!?!?! You are almost half insane. First of all, our bodies are going to die and be resurrected. They will be glorified and not just the same old bodies. Second, where did you come up with this "de-consecration" idea? That's so not true! They would never "discard" the eucharist! If there is any "left over" after communion, the priest consumes it, he doesn't "de- consecrate" it. I heard it at RCIA. You're talking about a few wafers left over at the end of a mass. I'm talking about situations where something that is consecrated has to be destroyed. |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 9:02:14 GMT -5
If you disagree, provide evidence that contradicts the accepted historical view...... In IC.XC, Ramon I'm always up for proof like that. That speaks louder than lack of proof. Well written Ramon. ;D |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 9:03:00 GMT -5
Where in the Bible does it say the Roman Catholic Church is the final authority? I am not Roman Catholic, but where in the Bible does it say Holy Scripture is the final (and only) authority? It doesn't. That almost begs a debate! In IC.XC, Ramon Can't argue with logic. According to The Holy Bible, The Holy Bible doesn't exist if one is a Sola Scripturist. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 10:05:45 GMT -5
Cepha- Jesus is dead? My Bible says He is risen and alive...Thus, still in charge I do not believe the RCC is a Christian denomincation...so there must have been Christians outside of it for there to be Christians today. |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 10:25:22 GMT -5
Cepha- Jesus is dead? My Bible says He is risen and alive...Thus, still in charge I do not believe the RCC is a Christian denomincation...so there must have been Christians outside of it for there to be Christians today. You're absolutely right...Catholicism is not a "denomination" of Christianity, but is Universal Christianity (the non-denominational body of believers). All Christian denominations can be traced back to a man as a leader. Catholicism is traced back all the way to The Bible. And, there were no Christians outside of The Universal Christian Church. All Christians were "universal" (Catholic) Christians. None were denominational Christians. If you read the proofs I provided of The Church Fathers (even those who studied with The Apostles say what I say), you'd see that anyone who called themselves Christians but who weren't Catholic (universal) Christians were not true Christians. This is history talking, not just me. I just happen to agree with it. OK, if there were other Christian churches, then name "one". Prove it. I cannot believe that a fake Christian church would exist for 2000 years and the real Christian church couldn't be proven to have ever existed. That would be the gates of hell prevailing over the true Christian Church (which Jesus said would never happen). Why can't you simply prove this? |
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Post by teresahrc on May 23, 2009 11:16:00 GMT -5
You must be thinking of something else, like a Church building or something.
The eucharist is never "de-consecrated".
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 11:31:56 GMT -5
You must be thinking of something else, like a Church building or something. The eucharist is never "de-consecrated". Yes, definitely "things". The Eucharist can't be de-consecrated? You're probably right. ;D |
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Post by teresahrc on May 23, 2009 11:41:15 GMT -5
What?
Oh, I love those 3 little words. Oh wait...that's 4 words.
Try this one Cepha,
"You......are......right!!"
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Post by Ramon on May 23, 2009 11:44:50 GMT -5
Cepha- Jesus is dead? My Bible says He is risen and alive...Thus, still in charge I do not believe the RCC is a Christian denomincation...so there must have been Christians outside of it for there to be Christians today. O.k, so are you saying that there were Christians outside the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church (not talking about the RCC) of the Apostolic Era to 1,000AD? True Christians, following in the footsteps of the Holy Apostles and there Holy Successors? I asked you that before, but you didn't answer. Your Bible believing friends said there were, but they never said there names and where they were located at. I can not believe Scriptures and yet believe that for the first 1,000 years of Church history, there were some Christians outside the Apostolic Church that Christ started, preserve by the Holy Apostles and there Holy Successors, teaching the True Faith. No, the True Faith was only within the Apostolic Church that Christ specifically started. Read History. THIS Church defended against Gnostic, Arius, and all the Early heresies started by heretics. THIS Church decided on what books were canonical and what should be discarded. THIS Church was the one persecuted by the Romans, etc. There was no other. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 11:48:41 GMT -5
Ramon, your posts are hard for me to read. Paragraph form messes me up, not so much on paper, but a lot on the internet.
Christians were taught by the Disciples, then taught other people, etc etc until the Bible was written. Then they taught people from the Bible, then they taught other people, etc etc.
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Post by Ramon on May 23, 2009 11:52:53 GMT -5
Ramon, your posts are hard for me to read. Paragraph form messes me up, not so much on paper, but a lot on the internet. Sorry Emily. Christians were taught by the Disciples, then taught other people, etc etc until the Bible was written. Then they taught people from the Bible, then they taught other people, etc etc. Not really. There was no "Bible Canon" for the first four centuries of Church History. Thereby, some early Christians [Fathers included] believed the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabas, 1 Clement, The Shepherd of Hermas and others were consider to genuine parts of Scriptures. The OT, the Gospels, the Epistles were generally accepted as Scriptures, but books such as Hebrews, 2-3 John, 2 Peter, and Revelation was debated for a long time. It was settle (Though it took a long time before everyone in various parts of the Church to finally accept the decision) in the four century through various local Councils (i.e., Council of Rome in 382AD). Since the majority of Christians in the Early Church couldn't read, they heard Scriptures being read to them in Church services (i.e., Divine Liturgy, etc) (by the Priests/Bishops), and later "saw" Scriptures (in the Holy Icons). Christians was taught through Scriptures and the Living Tradition of the Church. For the first 1,000 years of Church History, people were not taught strictly from the Bible (as if the Early Church believe in the Bible Alone theory). In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 11:59:44 GMT -5
No, it's ok...I was just saying sometimes I just gloss over posts that are in that format and miss things.
The Disciples of Christ orally taught others, who orally taught others...until the Bible was complete. Then Disciples taught others through reading the BIble. Trickled down all the way to today.
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Post by Ramon on May 23, 2009 12:04:22 GMT -5
The Disciples of Christ orally taught others, who orally taught others...until the Bible was complete. Then Disciples taught others through reading the BIble. Trickled down all the way to today. The Early Christians was taught to follow what the Holy Apostles wrote (specially Saint Paul's Epistles) and what they taught them through mouth (not written only) (2 Thes 2:15). Christians was taught through Scriptures and the Living Tradition of the Church. For the first 1,000 years of Church History, people were not taught strictly from the Bible (as if the Early Church believe in the Bible Alone theory). The Early Christians follow Scriptures and the teachings of the Holy Fathers. Check History. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 12:13:09 GMT -5
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 12:15:16 GMT -5
Ramon, your posts are hard for me to read. Paragraph form messes me up, not so much on paper, but a lot on the internet. Christians were taught by the Disciples, then taught other people, etc etc until the Bible was written. Then they taught people from the Bible, then they taught other people, etc etc. Oh oh...don't let any Anti-Catholics hear you say that! LOL! |
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