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Post by watchman on May 26, 2009 9:40:03 GMT -5
That church is not the RCC, so where is this infallible church. Not according to The Church Fathers that you claim to believe in. Are you now going to deny Polycarp? Ireneaus? Ignatius? All whom literally state that the one true Church was founded in Rome and that Saint Peter was the First Pope? I deny what those church fathers said, I deny that they said that. |
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Post by watchman on May 26, 2009 9:42:57 GMT -5
You are wrong on many side of this post. The Bible plainly states that Joseph did not know his wife until Jesus was born. It is not a [private interpretation to realize he knew her after Jesus was born it is common since that a child should have, and take indoctrination to not realize. Further more I do not believe the church was fallible until the Bible was form. I believe the RCC is fallible. I also do not discount the words of Christ who said the gates of Hell shall not prevail against His church. I know how it ends. It ends with Satan, Hell, and all who reject Christ being cast into the Lake of fire, and God's true church, the multitude of believers from all time, and all denoms ect... living with Christ in New Jerusalem. Teresa, He doesn't accept the definition of the word "until" as it is defined. To him, it doesn't mean "before". I asked him for proof that it means something besides "before", but I never got it. So, I asked him for a scripture that states they had relations or that Joseph "knew" Mary after Jesus was born. Never got one scripture. Not one. None. Therefore, the belief is proven to be "unbiblical". You are wrong I gave you scripture. Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.The only way anyone could not understand what this scripture says and means is if they had been indoctrinated to believe otherwise. |
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Post by watchman on May 26, 2009 9:44:28 GMT -5
I would not be so vain as to believe that I could not be wrong. However if I knew I was wrong about something then I would change my view. What I do is stick to what I can confirm with scripture, and what God confirms in my spirit. That's the clincher..."how" would you know if you were wrong with not outside authority? That's why God created The Church...to keep men from leading themselves. ;D Easy the same way God convicts me of sin, He would alarm my spirit that what is being said or what I am thinking is untrue. |
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Post by watchman on May 26, 2009 9:45:33 GMT -5
They very well may have, that proves nothing. Many of their teaching directly contradict scripture, so either the Bible is not infallible or the RCC is not infallible. I am putting my money with the Bible. No, many of our teachings directly contradict your ability to receive them as truth. Your inability to accept these teachings don't make them true. It makes your inability to accept them faulty. They contradict the plain common since meaning of scripture. |
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Post by watchman on May 26, 2009 9:56:39 GMT -5
[]I agree that the body of Christ was visible in the first century, but that Church was not the RCC. I also agree with emily that the church is still visible today, you just have to know what you are looking for to see it. Ahhh yes, the dissappearing "church" theory. How could The Church be like a shining beacon on a hill, then dissappear?  I never said the church disappeared, I said it was visible and still is visible. I tell this much if we as the church are supposed to reflect Christ. The RCC has done a very pore job of doing so. God has always had a remnant. |
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Post by watchman on May 26, 2009 9:58:21 GMT -5
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. (John 16) You see, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide the Apostles into all truth. I'm not the one claiming that there would be an infallible Church, Jesus did. According to that, Watchman and his wife must be the only ones who The Holy Spirit is guiding.  God always has and always will have a remnant of true believers. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 26, 2009 10:46:22 GMT -5
Yes, I use the KJV. It is my final authority, I understand it because of the work of the HS.
The Catholic Church is not my final authority because it is a church made by men and is not the Church God wants us to be apart of. It is a building with a lot of crazy activities going on inside.
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Post by alfie on May 26, 2009 13:03:11 GMT -5
Cepha, Which of the following quotes is correct about purgatory ? Please tell me which is the right answer based on the opinions of these Catholics? These are just a few of the many, many views on purgatory, but there are many more. On 1999-JUL-28, Pope John Paul II described Hell to be "More than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy." By extension, Purgatory may be more of a state of being than an actual place. St. Thomas Aquinas taught that only one form of torture is used in Purgatory "to cleanse us from the remains of sin...the pain of fire only is ascribed to Purgatory." St. Thomas Aquinas quotes Gregory the Great as quoting St. Augustine who wrote: "Even as in the same fire gold glistens and straw smokes, so in the same fire the sinner burns and the elect is cleansed." St. Augustine apparently believed that the same fire that tortures the sinful in Hell also is used to purify the saved in Purgatory. Some believe that this implies that Purgatory and Hell are either adjacent or in the same location. Aquinas wrote that there are probably two Purgatory locations: one is inside the earth and is close hell so that they can share the same fire. The other location is above the earth, between us and God. St. Thomas Aquinas quotes St. Augustine as saying that "This fire of Purgatory will be more severe than any pain that can be felt, seen or conceived in this world." Aquinas agrees with St. Augustine. There will be two types of pain in Purgatory. They feel a keen sense of loss because they will not be in the presence of God while they remain in Purgatory. They will also feel the "punishment by corporeal fire." The former is an overwhelming pain because the souls there will deeply long to be with God. The thermally induced pain would also be severe because it would be inflicted on the soul itself - there are no bodies in Purgatory. "Therefore it follows that the pain of Purgatory, both of loss and of sense, surpasses all the pains of this life." The Catholic Encyclopedia mentions that St. Bonaventure thought: "that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life." |
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Post by teresahrc on May 26, 2009 13:07:18 GMT -5
Wait a minute....
We don't worship wafers...hahaha.
But if you are talking about the Eucharist, which the Bible CLEARLY says is the body and blood of Jesus, then yes, we worship Jesus, and every knee will bow before Him.
But there is a verse in the Bible that talks about the Eucharist and judgement.
27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (1 Corinthians 11)
You could try and explain that verse away, or condemn us who obey it, but I really don't recommend it because then you are arguing with God.
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Post by Cepha on May 26, 2009 13:09:55 GMT -5
According to that, Watchman and his wife must be the only ones who The Holy Spirit is guiding. I guide my wife, just as scriptures I should. So, the Holy Spirit guides you and not your wife? In other words, your her spiritual guide? Her "pope"?  |
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Post by Cepha on May 26, 2009 13:10:58 GMT -5
Not according to The Church Fathers that you claim to believe in. Are you now going to deny Polycarp? Ireneaus? Ignatius? All whom literally state that the one true Church was founded in Rome and that Saint Peter was the First Pope? I deny what those church fathers said, I deny that they said that. Alrightee then...go answer those questions there: fideidefensor.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=churchfathers&action=display&thread=557 ;D |
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Post by Cepha on May 26, 2009 13:18:02 GMT -5
Teresa, He doesn't accept the definition of the word "until" as it is defined. To him, it doesn't mean "before". I asked him for proof that it means something besides "before", but I never got it. So, I asked him for a scripture that states they had relations or that Joseph "knew" Mary after Jesus was born. Never got one scripture. Not one. None. Therefore, the belief is proven to be "unbiblical". You are wrong I gave you scripture. Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.The only way anyone could not understand what this scripture says and means is if they had been indoctrinated to believe otherwise. That doesnt' say they had relations. In fact, it literally says that they didn't have relations (knew her not). And after that, what does it say? "till" What does "till" mean? It literally means "before". That is, unless you accept the definition of the word as commonly accepted in the English language. What do you believe "till" means in that scripture? And, like you said, if it ain't in The Bible, it doesn't exist. No where in The Bible does it literally say "they had relations". The only mention of that is that it says "they had NO relations". ;D |
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Post by Cepha on May 26, 2009 13:19:36 GMT -5
That's the clincher..."how" would you know if you were wrong with not outside authority? That's why God created The Church...to keep men from leading themselves. ;D Easy the same way God convicts me of sin, He would alarm my spirit that what is being said or what I am thinking is untrue. In other words, you are "infallible"? Wow...funny how no one else can be "infallible" or no one else can be led by The Holy Spirit, but you. Truly a "church amongst yourself" (The Church Fathers preached against people like you...those "outside" of The Church who refused to yield to The Magisterium). |
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Post by watchman on May 26, 2009 13:32:39 GMT -5
I guide my wife, just as scriptures I should. So, the Holy Spirit guides you and not your wife? In other words, your her spiritual guide? Her "pope"? I am no ones pope, and my wife has discernment to know if what I believe is correct or not. However I am to be the priest of the home because the Bible says so. |
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Post by watchman on May 26, 2009 13:35:57 GMT -5
Easy the same way God convicts me of sin, He would alarm my spirit that what is being said or what I am thinking is untrue. In other words, you are "infallible"? Wow...funny how no one else can be "infallible" or no one else can be led by The Holy Spirit, but you. Truly a "church amongst yourself" (The Church Fathers preached against people like you...those "outside" of The Church who refused to yield to The Magisterium). Never said I was infallible, nor did I say that no one else infallible, matter of fact I said just the opposite. #1 that I might be wrong about somethings. #2 God has always and still does have a remnant of true believers. So I do not believe that I am the only one led into truth by the Holy Spirit. Elisha though He was alone in serving God and what did God say? I have a remnant, and that is still true today. |
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Post by Cepha on May 26, 2009 13:38:08 GMT -5
So, the Holy Spirit guides you and not your wife? In other words, your her spiritual guide? Her "pope"? I am no ones pope, and my wife has discernment to know if what I believe is correct or not. However I am to be the priest of the home because the Bible says so. So if she has discernment, why does she need to be guided by you? I'm confused, doesn't The Holy Spirit talk to her directly too? Or do you have to "confirm" things for her? And where does The Bible say you are to be The Priest of the home? Remember, whenever that word was used, it was in letters addressed only to Church leaders (not to the general community). Please, show me the scripture that says you are to be the Priest of your home. (Is your home now a church? Do you have an altar where The Priest performs his duties the way Paul said he performed his Priestly duties? Also, who "ordained" you the way God said His Priests are supposed to be ordained?) |
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Post by watchman on May 26, 2009 13:39:08 GMT -5
You are wrong I gave you scripture. Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.The only way anyone could not understand what this scripture says and means is if they had been indoctrinated to believe otherwise. That doesnt' say they had relations. In fact, it literally says that they didn't have relations (knew her not). And after that, what does it say? "till" What does "till" mean? It literally means "before". That is, unless you accept the definition of the word as commonly accepted in the English language. What do you believe "till" means in that scripture? And, like you said, if it ain't in The Bible, it doesn't exist. No where in The Bible does it literally say "they had relations". The only mention of that is that it says "they had NO relations". ;D We already been through that. If I tell my 2 year old child that he cannot have a cookie until he finishes his dinner he at 2 years old realizes that after dinner he can have a cookie, yet you an adult supposedly intelligent person cannot understand something just as simple. If he had no relations with Marry until the baby was born if proof that he did have relations after the Child's birth. |
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Post by watchman on May 26, 2009 13:40:39 GMT -5
I am no ones pope, and my wife has discernment to know if what I believe is correct or not. However I am to be the priest of the home because the Bible says so. So if she has discernment, why does she need to be guided by you? I'm confused, doesn't The Holy Spirit talk to her directly too? Or do you have to "confirm" things for her? And where does The Bible say you are to be The Priest of the home? Remember, whenever that word was used, it was in letters addressed only to Church leaders (not to the general community). Please, show me the scripture that says you are to be the Priest of your home. (Is your home now a church? Do you have an altar where The Priest performs his duties the way Paul said he performed his Priestly duties? Also, who "ordained" you the way God said His Priests are supposed to be ordained?) The Holy Spirit does guide her, and I am to be her authority because God said so, my home is much more than a church it is a family. |
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Post by teresahrc on May 26, 2009 13:46:28 GMT -5
Ok, so who is in charge of this remnant? That is, who are the deacons, teachers, etc.? What do they all believe--where can I find a list of their doctrines so I can study them? Where would I go if I wanted to be baptized by them? What about the Lord's Supper, when and where can I go to participate? How does one find a group of them in order to bring a brother if there is a dispute?
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Post by watchman on May 26, 2009 13:52:50 GMT -5
Ok, so who is in charge of this remnant? That is, who are the deacons, teachers, etc.? What do they all believe--where can I find a list of their doctrines so I can study them? Where would I go if I wanted to be baptized by them? What about the Lord's Supper, when and where can I go to participate? How does one find a group of them in order to bring a brother if there is a dispute? God/ Jesus Christ is in charge of us. They believe the Scriptures. The remnant is scattered throughout christiandom, however we will be gathered together spotless, and unblameable before our Lord. ;D |
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