|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 9:13:20 GMT -5
 Bible literalists; Mary is your mother, true or not true according to The Holy Bible?Revelation 12:17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman,
and went away to make war with the rest of her seed,
that keep the commandments of God,
and hold the testimony of Jesus:
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 9:13:39 GMT -5
For comparisions:
Revelation 12:17
International Standard Version (©2008)
The dragon became angry with the woman and went away to do battle against the rest of her children, the ones who keep God's commandments and hold on to the testimony about Jesus.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The serpent became angry with the woman. So it went away to fight with her other children, the ones who keep God's commands and hold on to the testimony of Jesus. (18) The serpent stood on the sandy shore of the sea.
King James Bible
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
American King James Version
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
American Standard Version
And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:
Bible in Basic English
And the dragon was angry with the woman and went away to make war on the rest of her seed, who keep the orders of God, and the witness of Jesus:
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Darby Bible Translation
And the dragon was angry with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus.
English Revised Version
And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:
Webster's Bible Translation
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Weymouth New Testament
This made the Dragon furiously angry with the woman, and he went elsewhere to make war upon her other children--those who keep God's commandments and hold fast to the testimony of Jesus.
World English Bible
The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep God's commandments and hold Jesus' testimony.
Young's Literal Translation
and the dragon was angry against the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commands of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 9:16:18 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on Jun 5, 2009 9:17:33 GMT -5
Not true.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 9:22:31 GMT -5
But that woman is the woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ in verse 5. Only The Virgin Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ. So, it is Mary (there is no doubt about that, that is, "if" you accept what The Bible states). And, it literally calls Christians (those that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus: ) her "seed" or her offspring or in other words, her "children", right? So, according to this scripture, those that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus: are the children of the "woman" who gave birth to Jesus Christ (The Blessed Virgin Mary). Do you disagree with Revelations 12:17? |
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on Jun 5, 2009 9:24:18 GMT -5
I agree with Rev 12:17, but it's not Mary that verse is talking about.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 9:26:05 GMT -5
I agree with Rev 12:17, but it's not Mary that verse is talking about. 1. So, if Mary didn't give birth to Jesus Christ, who did? 2. And, what is your scriptural proof that it wasn't Mary? 3. And, exactly "what" is it about Rev 12:17 that you agree with? 4. That Christians are the woman's children (the woman who gave brith to Christ)?  |
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on Jun 5, 2009 9:28:37 GMT -5
I never said Mary didn't give birth to Christ.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 9:34:31 GMT -5
I never said Mary didn't give birth to Christ. But you denied that the woman in Rev 12 is Mary. So, for you to deny that, you'd have to have an alternative explanation as to who the woman that gave birth to Jesus Christ in Rev 12 is. And... 2. And, what is your scriptural proof that it wasn't Mary?
3. And, exactly "what" is it about Rev 12:17 that you agree with?
4. That Christians are the woman's children (the woman who gave brith to Christ)?If you say that it was mary who gave birth to Jesus Christ (and no one else), then you have to accept that it was Mary that Rev 12 was talking about when it called Christians her children. No other woman is mentioned there. Right? Only the one who gave birth to Jesus Christ. Right? So, how can Christians "not" be the children of Mary? |
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on Jun 5, 2009 9:39:06 GMT -5
The woman in that verse is refering to Israel.
I believe we have discussed this in the past.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 9:59:28 GMT -5
The woman in that verse is refering to Israel. I believe we have discussed this in the past. That would be impossible since Israel "rejected" Jesus Christ. Are you saying that Jesus is the offspring of a woman that rejected Him?And, what is your evidence that it's Israel?
Do you have a biblical references that calls The Woman in Revelations 12 Israel?What you are essentially saying is that The Bible is not speaking "literally" in that verse, but symbollicaly, correct?I don't deny that, but you have to have something Biblical to back that up. What I have to back up that it's Mary is that only Mary (not Israel) was forced to leave Jeruselum when Jesus was born when He was persecuted to be killed (as in the verses in Revelation). We all know that Joseph, Mary and Jesus left Jeruselum to avoid Jesus being killed as an infant (this is Satan waiting for the woman to give birth in Revelations). Right?
If The Woman is Israel, how can Israel flee from Israel? That doesn't make sense. But, if The Bible is speaking literally here, that the woman means the woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ, then it can only be Mary because only Mary left Israel to protect Jesus from who?The Jews that were trying to kill Jesus (Harrod). The Bible states that the "woman" left Israel for about 3 1/2 years, right?
Who left Israel for 3 1/2 years?Mary. How do we know this?
Because it states in The Bible that they (The Holy Family) came back to Israel when Harrod died, right?
When did Harrod die?About 3 1/2 years after Jesus was born. How do we know this?Historically speaking, Harrod died around 1 A.D. (or approximately around 3 1/2 years after Jesus was born). Therefore, you have scripture agreeing with history that Mary left Israel for about 1260 days. When has Israel ever left Israel for only 3 1/2 years? |
|
|
|
Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 10:16:32 GMT -5
I agree with Rev 12:17, but it's not Mary that verse is talking about. True, Mary is not the woman compare the vision is revelation 12 to the dream of Joseph in Genesis 37:9-10 Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:Genesis37
9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? The woman clothed in the Sun (Jacob), the moon at her feet (Rachael) and a crown of twelve stars (The 12 tribes of Israel) is Israel not Mary, and in Christ all believers are citizens of Israel. The woman encompasses all believers. |
|
|
|
Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 10:18:15 GMT -5
The woman in that verse is refering to Israel. I believe we have discussed this in the past. That would be impossible since Israel "rejected" Jesus Christ Not impossible at all. Jesus came through Abraham via Judah, via David. Israel gave birth to Christ. |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 10:31:38 GMT -5
I agree with Rev 12:17, but it's not Mary that verse is talking about. Tue, Mary is not the woman compare the vision is revelation 12 to the dream of Joseph in Genesis 37:9-10  But wait, that only has 11 stars and doesn't mention a woman at all. Revelation is literally talking about a woman. How do you tie Gen 37 to Rev 12? By the mention of 11 stars and the moon and the sun? Is everytime the sun and moon and stars mention an automatic reference to Rev 12 then just by their mention? But the quote YOU chose doesn't state 12 stars...only 11? Ok, so according to you, the woman has several definitions? It's NOT the woman who actually gave birth to Jesus Christ and literally fled Israel for 3 1/2 years (which is historically accurate)? But, the woman IS Israel (which by the way, to this day rejects Christ) plus the woman "encompasses" (not births) all believers? Revelation states that the woman doesn't "encompass", but is the mother of all believers. How do you arrive to your theory? By the way, there is only one woman (that's if you take the Bible "as written", who gave birth to Jesus. In Hebrew writing, the moon symbolizes darkness, evil. The woman (Mary) is stomping out evil with her act...bringing forth He Who refers to Himself as "The Life" and which John 1 calls "The Light" which could easily be seen as The Sun. Mary having The Light (Jesus) in her was embraced in The Sun. What light is brighter to be compared to than the actual Sun? And, your theory doesn't answer the questions I posted: When did Israel flee from Israel for 3 1/2 years to avoid Jesus being killed? We know that Mary did this, but there is no historical nor biblical evidence that states Israel (The Nation) did this. How could Israel be the woman? It rejects Jesus Christ. Right? Are you saying that all Believers who hold the testimony to Jesus Christ are the children of Israel. |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 10:32:47 GMT -5
Hey Watchman, why don't you take a stab at the questions I posted to Em!
Feel free!
;D
|
|
|
|
Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 10:33:45 GMT -5
But wait, that only has 11 stars and doesn't mention a woman at all. The 12th star was Joseph Himself, I realize you are catholic and have been indoctrinated to believe a lie, but that doesn't make the truth any less true. |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 10:37:55 GMT -5
Oh, and Genesis 37 is already explained as it talking about Joseph's relatives being subject to "him" (the eleven stars are his brothers literally). In The Book of Revelation, those 12 Stars are The 12 Apostles (who are the only ones mentioned in the entire chapter. Israel is never mentioned in Chapter 12.  (Rev 12:10-11 is talking about those who were being persecuted, The Apostles who were spreading the Gospel and who were martyred for doing so, save John who was writing the Book of Revelation) |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 10:40:20 GMT -5
But wait, that only has 11 stars and doesn't mention a woman at all. The 12th star was Joseph Himself, I realize you are catholic and have been indoctrinated to believe a lie, but that doesn't make the truth any less true. What about these questions that you missed? Ok, so according to you, the woman has several definitions?It's NOT the woman who actually gave birth to Jesus Christ and literally fled Israel for 3 1/2 years (which is historically accurate)?
But, the woman IS Israel (which by the way, to this day rejects Christ) plus the woman "encompasses" (not births) all believers?Revelation states that the woman doesn't "encompass", but is the mother of all believers.
How do you arrive to your theory?And, your theory doesn't answer the questions I posted: When did Israel flee from Israel for 3 1/2 years to avoid Jesus being killed?We know that Mary did this, but there is no historical nor biblical evidence that states Israel (The Nation) did this. How could Israel be the woman?
It rejects Jesus Christ.
Right? |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 10:45:50 GMT -5
But wait, that only has 11 stars and doesn't mention a woman at all. The 12th star was Joseph Himself, I realize you are catholic and have been indoctrinated to believe a lie, but that doesn't make the truth any less true. You're saying that it is a "lie" that Genesis 37 doesn't mention a "woman" in it? |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 10:55:13 GMT -5
That would be impossible since Israel "rejected" Jesus Christ Not impossible at all. Jesus came through Abraham via Judah, via David. Israel gave birth to Christ. Are you saying that Israel hasn't rejected Jesus Christ? And if it has, what kind of "mother" does that make it to Jesus Christ? In Revelation, The Woman is never said to have rejected Jesus Christ (just like The Virgin Mary didn't in true life). But as we know, today, Israel rejects Jesus Christ. |
|
