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Post by alfie on Jun 8, 2009 22:30:59 GMT -5
This is the 2nd commandment of the Ten Commandments given to Moses by God.
You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my Commandments.
Notice the commandment says not to even bow down to an idol. According to the dictionary an idol is any object of adoration.... like a picture for example.
Now explain why the Catholic Church eliminated the 2nd commandement and also took the ninth commandment and divided it in two to make the 9th and 10th commandment?
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Post by alfie on Jun 8, 2009 22:38:51 GMT -5
Is Jesus physical? Didn't the disciples see, touch and pray to him? "Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified." (Galatians 3) It is precisely because of the incarnation of Jesus that we can imagine what God's face looks like. If you can imagine that in your heart, there is nothing wrong with imagining it on a painting because the heart is more sacred than paper or canvas. Take the Bible for example. We know that the paper and ink are nothing, they will be burned in the fire on the last day. Yet the word of God speaks through the ink and paper, so we(hopefully) reverence even the book itself, by honoring it and showing respect. Icons are the same, they are paper, wood or canvas with paint etc. Those materials are meaningless in themselves, but when they are used to direct our hearts towards loving God, we honor them. Study the development of language and you will see that all languages began as "pictographs", pictures that represented a certain sound, word or phrase. Gradually, they were simplified and evolved into the various scripts we have today (Roman, Cyrillic, Arabic etc). They are symbols, in the same way an image is a symbol. Without understanding what they mean, they are useless, and there is little difference between writing the word "Cat" and drawing a picture of a cat. In fact, there was a people group in Papua New Guinea that at the time of their first meeting with foreigners did not know how to "read" a simple line drawing. If you showed them a simple line drawing of a face, they could not understand that it was meant to be a face--they didn't even see any image at all! Think about it. When someone says something like "Jesus died on a cross" do you not immediately, even automatically somewhere in your mind picture an image of Jesus on a cross? Do you not imagine shapes, colors and even a vague sense of darkness and pain? And when someone speaks of the Resurrection, do you not imagine Jesus in Glory, light and perhaps even angels, and empty tomb etc.? If we knew what Jesus looked like from a picture it would be different but no one painted a picture of him and the Bible only says he had wooly hair. Therefore if we don't know what he really looked like then we are worshiping a false object. |
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Post by alfie on Jun 8, 2009 22:43:40 GMT -5
Alfie, or they just wanted something physical and they could see and touch and pray to. It's like having pictures of one's loved ones Alfie. Just because they have them, it doesn't mean that they worship their loved ones. Alfie, do you have "images" of your loved ones? Pictures, portaits, photographs, etc...  None of my relatives are God. |
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Post by alfie on Jun 8, 2009 22:46:09 GMT -5
I don't like pictures of Mary or Jesus... especially Jesus. And when they make movies about Jesus (like the Passion of the Christ) the face of Jesus should never be shown. When The Passion of the Christ was shown in India there were reports of Indians buying the picture of the actor (Jim whatever his name is) who portrayed Jesus in order to worship him. These Indians actually thought this actor was Christ. How do you know that they actually believed he was Christ? Where did you get this story from (that they wanted to worship him through his picture)? Missionaries in India were reporting it. |
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Post by alfie on Jun 8, 2009 23:07:03 GMT -5
 Don't tell me this is only veneration. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 9:27:15 GMT -5
Explain to me where Protestants got the idea that the commandments are numbered in the BIble? Read it. They are not numbered.
And then, explain to me how it is that Catholics do not worship icons, but you insist we do. We would burn in hell for idolatry, so why would we do that?
So, your husband isn't God, but someone from India might take his photo and worship it. Uh-oh.
Images themselves are not forbidden. Images that are made to be worshipped, and worshipping images is forbidden.
If you are accusing us of a sin that we aren't committing, aren't you partnering with "the accuser of the brethren"? Please take time to think about that before accusing us again.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 9, 2009 10:32:30 GMT -5
This is the 2nd commandment of the Ten Commandments given to Moses by God. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my Commandments. Notice the commandment says not to even bow down to an idol. According to the dictionary an idol is any object of adoration.... like a picture for example. Exactly, a Idol, not images and Statues in general. A Icon can certainty be a Idol, but not in Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Our theology concerning Holy Icons and Statues are straight forward. Divine Worship is due to God alone. Scriptures gives witness to Holy Icons and Statues. Holy Icons and Statues goes back to the Old Testament! Deal with it! Second, Catholics and Orthodox do not worship Icons or Statues. We venerate them. We honor and respect the person or event the Icon respects. Do not accuse us Orthodox of worshiping Icons and Statues when we do not! Anyone who does is not Orthodox! I am going to very straightforward here. You should keep silent (and worry about your own salvation) and not pass judgments on something you know nothing about. You are not God and you do not know the hearts of men. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 9, 2009 10:40:08 GMT -5
Don't tell me this is only veneration.  Don't tell me this is only veneration!  |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 12:11:34 GMT -5
ROTFLMCBO!!
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 9, 2009 12:13:32 GMT -5
IDK about any of you...but when I lived in DC and went to go see the statue of Abe...never once did I bow down and pray to him.
Also, that is what Abe looked like, we having paintings and picture (do we...were pictures around back them, well paintings at least) of him.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 9, 2009 12:22:29 GMT -5
IDK about any of you...but when I lived in DC and went to go see the statue of Abe...never once did I bow down and pray to him. Oh, but you certainty found the statue to be beautiful and amazing, didn't you? Not a idol, right? You know how many people see the Statue of Abraham Lincoln, and show honor and respect to it each year? Thousands! And, I know of no American who worship the statue as a god. In the same way, we Orthodox do not bow down and worship Holy Icons and Statues. in fact Emily, in Scriptures, bowing down is often done in greeting another person (in a non-worshiping manner) (Gen 27:29; 33:3-7; 37:10; 41:43; 42:6; 43:26; 47:31; 48:12; 49:8; Ruth 2:10; 1 Sam 20:41; 24:8; 25:23, 41; 28:14; 2 Sam 9:8; 14:22, 33; 18:21; 24:20; 1 Kings 1:15, 23 (obeisance), 31(reverence), 47, 53; 2:19; 2 Kings 2:15; 4:37; 1 Chr 21:21; Est 3:2 (reverence); Isa 60:14). Also, that is what Abe looked like, we having paintings and picture (do we...were pictures around back them, well paintings at least) of him. So what? Also Holy Icons are never meant to represent the person or event in it's exactness. Holy Icons are not portrait pictures. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 9, 2009 12:29:03 GMT -5
Amazing and beautiful because of it's size, yes.
The one Catholic mass that I went to, there was a lot of bowing to tables and statues.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 12:30:50 GMT -5
No, dear, bowing to the presence of God.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 9, 2009 12:33:16 GMT -5
The one Catholic mass that I went to, there was a lot of bowing to tables and statues. Which doesn't mean worship, as Scriptures are full of examples of people bowing (to greet people), but not in a worshiping matter. In today's culture, bowing down (and kissing people hands) seems to always refer to worship, but Scriptural and in some cultures, this is simply not the case. One usually bow down when they see the Queen of England, but this is act of honor and respect, not out of worship. In some countries an embrace with kisses on both cheeks is the normal greeting. Hand shaking, bowing, etc are the norm in other societies. So long as it isn't an "act of worship" then no harm is done! Kissing Holy Icons, prostrations, among other things, are done out of reverence and respect, not worship. Don't judge the book by its cover! In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 9, 2009 12:42:00 GMT -5
Tables though...? And hunks of rock? I don't think I will ever understand.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 9, 2009 12:49:11 GMT -5
Tables though...? And hunks of rock? I don't think I will ever understand. No, not tables, but what is on the Table. Just like when one kiss a cross. They do not worship the wood, but rather what the cross represent and who was on it (Jesus Christ, our God and Savior). The same way a person might kiss there Bible. They do not worship the book, but what is inside the book, which offer spiritual life to the person who is reading it. Yup, I believe you will never understand that kissing and bowing is also a sign of reverence and honor, as was the custom in Scriptures. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 12:57:54 GMT -5
Emily, it's like soldiers saluting higher ranking officers. It's not for worship, but for honor.
Yet, when in God's presence, yes, we bow to God in worship.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 9, 2009 13:01:10 GMT -5
Emily, it's like soldiers saluting higher ranking officers. It's not for worship, but for honor. Yet, when in God's presence, yes, we bow to God in worship. Yup! It's very simple. When I was a Protestant, I never understood this either. Once I became Orthodox, I understood and my eyes were open. No Idolatry in the Catholic or Orthodox Churches. Just plain reverence and honor. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 15:57:59 GMT -5
Amazing and beautiful because of it's size, yes. The one Catholic mass that I went to, there was a lot of bowing to tables and statues. Have you ever gotten on your knees to pray? Was there a bed in front of you or a chair or something else? Were you bowing to the object? Or to the one you were praying to? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 15:58:29 GMT -5
No, dear, bowing to the presence of God. LOL! You beat me to it again! As usual! LOL! |
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