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Post by biblebeliever100 on Jul 1, 2009 6:42:21 GMT -5
Well first of all... concerning the age of accountability, we are all sinners. We are born sinners (see verses above) and are going to sin. As adults we can see that when a child chooses to do wrong then he/she is going against the will of God and disobeying. The child probably knows what he/she is doing is wrong but may or may not understand that he/she is disobeying God. If they do that is great, but if not they are still children and are still learning.
For example, would you let your child, say of age 8, invest a few thousand dollars in anything they choose? You leave everything up to them. To me that seems crazy! The child may know what money is and can count etc. but they are not nearly as educated or should have the maturity to take on that responsibility. They are children.
The age of accountability is for both men and women...when I say 'men' or 'man' I take that from the Bible which is shortened for mankind.
As far as I am aware I am correct with my knowledge on the age of accountability but I will study it further and let you know what I come up with!
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Post by biblebeliever100 on Jul 1, 2009 6:54:30 GMT -5
For the Word of God:
I believe the KJV is the Word of God. Many people think it is outdated so they change God's words. This is wrong, God put every word in for a reason. And yes I realize that it has been translated but if you look back through history, the KJV orginated from Antioch Seria which is believed to be the preserved Word of God. Every other Bible version has come out of Egypt, Alexandria I believe, which is corrupt.
People believe it would be 'easier to understand' an 'updated' version of the Bible so there were changes that have been made throughout the years. This is totally unnecessary because when you are saved by the grace of God, He tells you in His Word that He will show you what the Bible means. Throughout these other versions Bibles have deleted verses and added books. The added books are contradictory with the rest of the Bible and the verses that are taken out are vital.
For example in the NIV Acts 8:37 is completely omitted, which states, "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Now why would that verse be taken out? Philip is talking to the eunuch about baptism. There, the importance of baptism is revealed where the eunuch is baptized because he is publically confessing his faith for Jesus Christ. So again why would this verse be deleted? It is important to show us how baptism is a symbol and the importance of it!
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Post by teresahrc on Jul 1, 2009 8:38:20 GMT -5
Do you believe in all the 73 books of the bible? Do you have the same OT the Bereans used, or the one M luther used?
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 9:47:54 GMT -5
Whoa there's a lot going on here! Ok..... umm I'll number the points... to keep this straightforward! 1. Mary was born from a father and mother that were human here on earth correct? Then...she was born after Adam..... she was a sinner. I agree with what emily445455 said before that she could be 100% blameless but she cannot be sinless. Do you agree that it is God who forms us in The Womb? If you accept the scriptures that state this, then you have to accept that if God was going to form the biological mother of His Son, that at that moment, He could (and did) form her free of original sin. He had to, or else, His Son would contradict Him when He said: Matthew 7:18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit,
neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.And what does The Word of God call Jesus with his "relation" to The Blessed Virgin Mary? Luke 1:42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said,
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.If Jesus is a "fruit", that makes Mary the "tree" that bore him. And as we know, a rotten tree cannot produce a good fruit. Could you post the scriptural proof that specifically states that Mary sinned?  And, are you saying that God could "not" or did "not" form her perfect in the womb so that her Son could be born of pure unsoiled and good flesh? Are you saying that Jesus is 1/2 perfect and 1/2 imperfect because of Mary? Funny, but scripture foretold Jesus' coming in Genesis 3:15 and states that He was born of the "woman's" seed. Genesis 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head,
and thou shalt bruise his heel.(Unless, you don't believe that God was talking about Jesus conquering Satan with His sacrifice here) Do you have a scripture that supports that "God just happened to choose mary because she was a blameless women"? Was she ever referred to as a "blameless" woman in scripture? Jesus was born from the seed of Adam too (aka, "Son of Man" title). So, all of Jesus flesh either came from The Virgin Mary, or from her + her ancestors which according to your belief, would make him a sinner by default "unless", you believe that God "intervened" and cleaned up the flesh He gave Jesus? We weren't chosen to bring forth His Son. Mary was. Her reward for serving God and mankind in the highest way (her participation in bringing our Savior into the world) was to be protected from sin. Unless you're one of those who believes that God just used Mary and then cast her to the side once He got what He wanted from her? No, you're wrong. They didn't become "like" God until " after" they were created and partook of The Fruit of the tree. See? Genesis 2 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. They sinned first, thennnnbecame "like" God. You have it completely reversed.  So, you believe in Apollinarianism? You don't believe that Jesus was both fully man and God? Of course Jesus "is" God, but He is also fully man at the same time. If you are going to be literal about Romans, then you have to apply that to the "man" in Christ, because it not only says "all men", but it doesn't automatically exclude Jesus Christ. On top of all that...if you reallllllly want to be "literal-literal" about it, it "literally" states that all "men" are sinners...not all "women". ![]() cosec.bit.uni-bonn.de/fileadmin/emos/Winking_smiley.gif[/img]Then if Mary cannot be an exception, neither can Christ since His flesh and blood came from only one human being...Mary. His mother. You're either completely literal or you're not. Can't be literal "sometimes" then not literal the other times. And, God never said that Mary sinned (meaning that it is not impossible for Mary to be sinless in the same way that Jesus could not be sinless). You did.  |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 9:52:37 GMT -5
Unborn babies are from the seed of Adam so they are not perfect...but there is the age of accountability that you have to bring into the picture. Babies will go to heaven if they die.....but once they reach that age of accountability then they are responsible and need a Savior to get to heaven. From a book I am currently reading; In the fourteen century Catholics believed that fireflies were the souls of unbaptized infants. Sounds more like reincarnation than Christianity...don't you think? People also believed in dragons back then too...LOL! Don't forget unicorns! What did Protestants believe back in the 1300's? Oh wait! My bad! I forgot! They weren't " invented" yet!  |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:00:18 GMT -5
Cepha, none of your posted verses mention "Mary" you've just interjected her in them to try and prove your point. If you say that God wouldn't put Jesus in the womb of a sinful person because sin would be transfered to him, then where did Mary come from? Tell you what, let's have a scripture study and take each verse one by one...okay? (If a person not being mentioned by name in a scripture was grounds for dissassociating them from it referring to them, oh well, I guess we could throw out all the prophecies in the OT about Jesus too!) ;D Mary was formed in the womb sinless (God forms all of us in the womb). No, again, God forms us in the womb. The exact same way He formed Jesus sinless. The thing is that God had to use sinless flesh to form Christ His Son because God couldn't attach His begotten flesh to a sinful woman. Are you familiar with the teaching that when a man becomes one with a prostitute, her flesh becomes his flesh? Would God become one with a sinful woman to produce a sinless man especially since all that man's flesh would come "just" from the woman with no biological father? So, Jesus was a sinner too, huh?  Doesn't surprise me that a "man" would choose a dirty bus to send their kids to school. Which do you think God would use? I'd use the same one God would use! The Immaculate Bus! |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 10:09:59 GMT -5
Steven, Actually, my hubby told me about something he saw on TV awhile back (correct me if I'm wrong hunny, I just remember you teling me about this) that the are finding weird holes near dinosaurs mouths, they can't figure out what they are for. Fire maybe? Jeremy, it's very likely I'm messing this up, so correct me if I'm wrong. Also, your arguement for Romans 3:23 doesn't make any sense. ...come short of the glory of God. Jesus IS God, everyone else comes short of the glory of God (all parts of God, not just God the Father). If this verse is true for everyone except Mary mother of Jesus, then the Bible is lieing...since it says "all". God uses sinners to get His work done. If He didn't....nothing would get done. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:12:10 GMT -5
No, He was formed sinless, but then "became" sin. 2 Corinthians 5:21 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.Could you post scriptural proof that said Mary sinned? The scriptures you posted states all "men" have sinned. Mary is a woman (not a man). So, if you want to be "literally literal" about things and insist on absolutes, you have to accept the absolutes that Jesus, who was fully "man" must be included in all those "men" that have sinned and you have to admit that the scripture you quotes doesn't say all "women" have sinned. But, that's if you want to be "literal" (and not "selective"). You totally miss the reference. The clean bus has nothing to do with me. It is not transporting me, but my child. So, for my child, I would choose the immaculate bus. This has nothing to do with my sin (or lack thereof). It has to do with which "vessel" God would choose to transport His Son into the world! How could you miss that Toy? |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 10:19:01 GMT -5
Steven, You believe all women are sinless? How kind of you.
Man is short for mankind.
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 11:41:40 GMT -5
Ok, I don't understand why the whole baby thing is tied to Mary, but it's cool! Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. So based on those two verses yes babies are sinners. A sinner isn't a sinner because of the sins he/she commits. He is a sinner because he IS a sinner by nature. But! Jesus' sacrifice did away with "original sin" automatically. So now, we are no longer born sinners. We sin "after" birth. Jesus brought us back in communion with God, but we either remove ourselves from God by our actions or strengthen our relationship with God by our actions. What's the age for mentally retarded people? Excellent points BB1! Excellent. How do you reconcile that with (in the very "literal" way some read scripture) that one has to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved? And, what about those born "brain-dead"? It definitely answers it. Thanks! Well done! For us, there is no "hard number". For is, it is based upon the spiritual maturity of the child (depending on how much God chooses that child). For example, some are called by God early. Other's not at all. For some reason, some know they want to serve God from an early age, but not all ages are the same. Some at 5, some at 12, some at 44. So for us, there is no age, but more a "state" of existance in which they are able to make that choice for themselves. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 11:42:47 GMT -5
Heather, I think you can agree with me when I say children develope and mature at different rates. What I understood at 13, another children may have understood at 5. There's no definite number where a child turns xx years old and all of a sudden can make a decision like that. Some children never get to that point at all (the mentally retarded). Well said Em!  |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 12:06:44 GMT -5
Where is your source for Luther's quote? I'm sure it came from a Catholic writer. Here you go! Most people realize that the Living Church of God (or any of the true Churches of God) cannot be part of the Roman Catholic Church. However, some do not realize that the Living Church of God is not part of the Protestant reformation movement led by Martin Luther (our history predates Luther, and the actual Roman Catholic Church for that matter, please see the History of Early Christianity). www.cogwriter.com/luther.htmWhat do you care about him? You go to "his" church! LOL! Unless, you're "not" a Methodist! Would you say that you "protest" Wesley and his beliefs? Yeah, just like Jesus said..."A house divided against itself cannnot stand."  |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 12:11:15 GMT -5
For the Word of God: I believe the KJV is the Word of God. Many people think it is outdated so they change God's words. This is wrong, God put every word in for a reason. And yes I realize that it has been translated but if you look back through history, the KJV orginated from Antioch Seria which is believed to be the preserved Word of God. Every other Bible version has come out of Egypt, Alexandria I believe, which is corrupt.  Where did you get this information from? How do you trace a book that didn't exist until the 16th century to Antioch Seria? |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 12:13:15 GMT -5
Do you believe in all the 73 books of the bible? Do you have the same OT the Bereans used, or the one M luther used? Good question! If it's the "pre-16th" Century Bible, then it HAS to have 73 books in it because no 66( 6 ) book bible existed before the 16th century. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 12:24:32 GMT -5
Steven, Actually, my hubby told me about something he saw on TV awhile back (correct me if I'm wrong hunny, I just remember you teling me about this) that the are finding weird holes near dinosaurs mouths, they can't figure out what they are for. Fire maybe? Jeremy, it's very likely I'm messing this up, so correct me if I'm wrong. Are you talking about dragons? But, Jesus is also fully man! And, it says all men have sinned right? I'm not taking away anything from His being God. And, The Bible says that women cannot have sex for 7 days after their period ends. Is this still true? Or is The Bible lieing there too? Emily, there have always been exceptions in The Bible. Some went to heaven before Jesus died. This is an exception. Jesus said no one saw God. But Moses saw God. Is Jesus lieing? Of course not. We just don't understand "how" He means it. However, that contradiction to all humans still is "in" The Bible. This doesn't make the Word of God a lier, but us not able to understand what Jesus meant. ;D No doubt, but if God insisted on a "pure" Ark to carry around His Word on stone tablets, why would He use anything less to carry around His actual Son? You guys make it seem like God places more importance on a material object than on His own Son.  |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 12:27:09 GMT -5
Steven, You believe all women are sinless? How kind of you. Man is short for mankind. LOL! Not my ex's! LOL! Only my "next" woman is sinless in my eyes! And! It don't say "man", but "men"! LOL! Don't tell me it's short for "menkind"! LOL! |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 12:27:13 GMT -5
Yes, dragons.
Everyone has sinned, Steven, that is a fact. Jesus, being man...but also God is sinnless and is part of the last part of that verse, not the first. To say that not all men have sinned would be saying the Bible is not true. Unless of course if that's what Catholics believe, it wouldn't shock me.
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 12:41:42 GMT -5
You know where the idea of dragons come from? People came across dinosaur remains/bones and began to create stories to explain them. But The Bible literally said that Jesus literally "became" sin! So, He was also sinful (full of sin), right? And, not one person her has posted one scripture that said that Mary sinned nor that alllll women have sinned! LOL! Not one! And until I see that scripture! It's not "biblical" to believe that! LOL! |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 12:46:03 GMT -5
Steven, On the flip side...no one has posted a Scripture that stated she didn't sin. I posted one verse that said ALL has sinned, and I think toy4mud posted another one with a similar concept.
Becoming sin for us and sining are two different things. Jesus took on our sins, but never sinned.
And maybe the people who discovered dinosaur bones weren't too far off then. Fire breathing animals are in the Bible, I believe.
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 12:57:50 GMT -5
Steven, On the flip side...no one has posted a Scripture that stated she didn't sin. I posted one verse that said ALL has sinned, and I think toy4mud posted another one with a similar concept. Becoming sin for us and sining are two different things. Jesus took on our sins, but never sinned. And maybe the people who discovered dinosaur bones weren't too far off then. Fire breathing animals are in the Bible, I believe. Hello? Jesus=Fruit Mary=Tree Do the math! It's amazing how you guys will "deduce" scripture when it's trying to prove she had sex post Christ, but don't recognize the scriptures there that defend her virginity! And, you both denied that "all" have sinned making exceptions for Jesus! So, not "all" have sinned! You can't have it both ways. That's "creative understanding". Cafetiria acception. It's all or nothing! LOL! If all men have sinned, then Jesus (who is a man) sinned! There is no exception stated in scripture for 1/4 Man, 1/4 Son, 1/4 Holy Spirit, 1/4 God The Father! |
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