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Post by toy4mud on Jun 29, 2009 17:28:51 GMT -5
1 Pet 2:21-24
21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1 John 3:5-6
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Jesus was sinless.
Mary was a sinner, you have no scripture that references Mary and sinlessness, other than what you've chosen to be about Mary.
Why would you choose the clean bus? To seperate yourself from sin? You will always sin. Being on the dirty bus is a way to teach others about Jesus and lead them to be forgiven of their sins.
2 Tim 2:2
2And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
You can't hide from sin. All men are sinners. Trying to put yourselves in a group that is "holy" and "better" than others won't do anything for you.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 29, 2009 22:17:09 GMT -5
Of course she was sinless, But she still needed a savior!! Everyone needs Jesus to be their Savior, why would Mary be an exception? The Orthodox church says Mary was a sinner. Err! Wrong answer! Try again! In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 22:42:01 GMT -5
Toy4Mud,
Are unborn babies sinless? What about infants? What about a 2 year old?
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 22:45:11 GMT -5
Unborn babies are from the seed of Adam so they are not perfect...but there is the age of accountability that you have to bring into the picture. Babies will go to heaven if they die.....but once they reach that age of accountability then they are responsible and need a Savior to get to heaven. Really? Where in the Bible does it say there is an "age of accountability"? What age is it? So you are saying that babies go to heaven without a Savior? Without Jesus? How can that be, since Jesus said that no one comes to the Father but by Him? Can you show your theory using scripture? |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 29, 2009 22:51:22 GMT -5
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Men is everyone. This is scripture reference that all have sinned. Romans 3:13 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; I would choose the dirty bus. Even you will have to agree that those verses have exceptions, otherwise you will believe Jesus and infants are sinners (since Saint Paul said "all" have sinned). Frequently an apparently absolute declaration is limited in application. Consider the following examples in which "all" is clearly to be understood in a restricted sense: In Luke 2:1, the word "all" is restricted to only the Roman World. In John 10:8, the word "all" does not refer to John the Baptist and other prophets. In Romans 3:23, the word "all" does not refer to Christ nor to infants, but it is again restricted. So you can't interpret those Scriptural texts has proof that the Theotokos was a sinner. I will say, in short, that the Holy Orthodox Church believes that Mary, the Theotokos, as a human being, could indeed have sinned, but chose not to (she was given a special grace from on High to not to fall into sin). Remember, Adam and Eve? They were sinless before the Fall. Remember, sinfulness was not part of our "nature". God did not create our First Parents sinful. It was something that arose due to Adam and Eve disobedience. The Most Holy Mother of God, through co-operation with God, achieved a level of holiness that involved no personal committing of sin. In the Roman Catholic understanding, it seems that Mary, the Theotokos, who according to Roman doctrine had been exempted from the guilt of original sin [the Orthodox do not accept that humans share the guilt of the first sin but, rather, only the consequences] before all eternity, and thus could not have sinned. She is holy, she is set apart for God, "humanity's singular true boast". The Theotokos needed a savior, just like the rest us. This doesn't contradict Orthodox teaching that she was sinless. She is proof that in Christ we can choose not to sin in as much as we have Christ in us and we are willing to cooperate with Christ. It was her "yes" to God that brought salvation to the world. She pave the way for our salvation. She is not the source of that salvation, but certainly a conduit for it. Nonetheless, as a mortal, subject to the consequences of sin, she also needed Christ. Without Christ, she couldn't do anything. That is why Mariology is always connected to Christology! Saint Paul commands us to be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect. Is he demanding the impossible? Do we not know that in God ALL THINGS are possible? We can be partakers of God's Divine energies, we can even choose not to sin. Sin is a sickness that can be cured by Christ. Sin is not part of our nature, but it is something that is alien to our nature (Romans 7:17) But again we also have get into that whole area of "what is sin". Orthodoxy has a much different definition than many Protestants. But we need to remember the following: The Theotokos received the fruits of Ancestral Sin which is Death. In the Service of the Dormition of the Theotokos we chant , "O pure Virgin sprung from mortal loins, Your end was comfortable to thy nature". Christ on the other hand was the only perfect one, without blemish. In Orthodoxy theology, Christ VOLUNTARILY went to the cross. Both are correct, if both are received within balanced. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 30, 2009 0:05:21 GMT -5
1 Pet 2:21-24 21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 1 John 3:5-6 5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Jesus was sinless. Mary was a sinner, you have no scripture that references Mary and sinlessness, other than what you've chosen to be about Mary. Why would you choose the clean bus? To seperate yourself from sin? You will always sin. Being on the dirty bus is a way to teach others about Jesus and lead them to be forgiven of their sins. 2 Tim 2:2 2And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. You can't hide from sin. All men are sinners. Trying to put yourselves in a group that is "holy" and "better" than others won't do anything for you. We are now going to see if you ascribe to the heretical belief that Jesus' divinity is separated from His being a man. Are you saying that Jesus was not a man? ANd if you recognize that Jesus is a man, then according to how you interpret that quote, you are condemning Him as being born a sinner. Where do you stand on this? Did Jesus sin or not? |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 30, 2009 0:13:36 GMT -5
Cepha, none of your posted verses mention "Mary" you've just interjected her in them to try and prove your point. If you say that God wouldn't put Jesus in the womb of a sinful person because sin would be transfered to him, then where did Mary come from? It must have been a long line of sinless lineage. It has been inferred that a main supporting argument for Mary being sinless is that "She has to be." Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Men is everyone. This is scripture reference that all have sinned. Romans 3:13 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; I would choose the dirty bus.
10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?Matthew 7 That's what separates you from God. God would choose the immaculate bus to send His Son. And I agree with Him that Jesus deserves the immaculate bus. Only the best for our King. Only the best for our Savior. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 30, 2009 0:20:54 GMT -5
Unborn babies are from the seed of Adam so they are not perfect...but there is the age of accountability that you have to bring into the picture. Babies will go to heaven if they die.....but once they reach that age of accountability then they are responsible and need a Savior to get to heaven. From a book I am currently reading; In the fourteen century Catholics believed that fireflies were the souls of unbaptized infants. Sounds more like reincarnation than Christianity...don't you think? What is the name of your unbiased book? How do you feel about Martin Luther referring to born again Christians as "piles of manure that are freshly covered with a coating of snow"? And why don't you believe in John Wesley's teachings? |
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Post by biblebeliever100 on Jun 30, 2009 9:58:24 GMT -5
Ok, I don't understand why the whole baby thing is tied to Mary, but it's cool!
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
So based on those two verses yes babies are sinners. A sinner isn't a sinner because of the sins he/she commits. He is a sinner because he IS a sinner by nature.
Buuut there is the age of accountability which denotes that age at which a person becomes mature enough to be held responsible by God for his or her sins. According to this theory, someone who dies BEFORE attaining the age of accountability will go to heaven, even though he or she has not received Jesus as Savior.
And here is your answer.... God said in Deut 1:39 "Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."
Isaiah 7:16 "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings."
So both of these verses state that children don't have the maturity to choose between that which is good and evil.
So... now to further answer your question lets take a look at a little history.
The books of Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers tell us about ancient days when the Jews were enslaved in Egypt and prayed to God to free them. And God responded by sending Moses to lead them out of Egypt into Canaan (the promised land). Because of the miracles that God did Moses was able to lead them out of Egypt, but then the Jews became afraid when they heard of the armies in Canaan and thus didn't believe God would lead them to victory, which in turn means they weren't obeying God and rebelled against Him. In Numbers 14:22-23 God says the Jews wont be permitted into the land of Canaan. And in Numbers 14:34-35 He says they will wander for 40 years in wilderness until they get old and die. It is important to see that God did not say that this would come unto ALL the Jews. In Numbers 14:29 God says that only the men 20 and older would die. In other words God says that those 19 and under were not held responsible and could enter into the Promised Land.
Deut. 1:39 refers back to the same rebellion. and describes those aged 19 and younger as "little ones and children... who have no knowledge of good and evil."
The age of accountability is again stated in Ex. 30:14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the Lord.
So based off of that the age of accountability according to God is under the age of 20.
Does that answer your question? Let me know!!
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Post by biblebeliever100 on Jun 30, 2009 10:00:05 GMT -5
Oh, and I didn't say I was reading a book.. and no... I don't believe any man's teachings... only the Word of God.
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 30, 2009 10:16:10 GMT -5
So... now to further answer your question lets take a look at a little history. The books of Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers tell us about ancient days when the Jews were enslaved in Egypt and prayed to God to free them. And God responded by sending Moses to lead them out of Egypt into Canaan (the promised land). Because of the miracles that God did Moses was able to lead them out of Egypt, but then the Jews became afraid when they heard of the armies in Canaan and thus didn't believe God would lead them to victory, which in turn means they weren't obeying God and rebelled against Him. In Numbers 14:22-23 God says the Jews wont be permitted into the land of Canaan. And in Numbers 14:34-35 He says they will wander for 40 years in wilderness until they get old and die. It is important to see that God did not say that this would come unto ALL the Jews. In Numbers 14:29 God says that only the men 20 and older would die. In other words God says that those 19 and under were not held responsible and could enter into the Promised Land. Deut. 1:39 refers back to the same rebellion. and describes those aged 19 and younger as "little ones and children... who have no knowledge of good and evil." The age of accountability is again stated in Ex. 30:14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the Lord. So based off of that the age of accountability according to God is under the age of 20. Does that answer your question? Let me know!! That's really interesting, I didn't know that. I know for me it was younger...the earliets I remember rejecting Jesus was 13. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 30, 2009 11:18:08 GMT -5
Really? So do you believe that the Bible teaches that people (or do you mean only males) under the age of 20 have not reached the "age of accountability"? You also believe that those who have not yet reached the "age of accountability" are not accountable for their sins before God?
Also, do you believe that babies, unborn children and those who have not reached "the age of accountability" are still guilty of sin, or have not committed sin?
So, do these persons who have not reached this age go to heaven automatically, without confessing that Jesus is their "Lord and Savior"? Is Jesus still their savior?
Do you believe this:
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
(Ephesians 1)
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 30, 2009 11:20:15 GMT -5
Oh, and I didn't say I was reading a book.. and no... I don't believe any man's teachings... only the Word of God. OK, so you believe that the Original Christian BIble is the Word of God, or the Protestant Bible is the Word of God? It is important that we make that distinction before we talk about what "the Word of God" is. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 30, 2009 11:21:35 GMT -5
OK guys, what is it? Age 13 is the "age of accountability" or age 20? You guys tell me based on the Bible and tell me when you come up with a consensus.
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 30, 2009 11:39:17 GMT -5
Heather, I think you can agree with me when I say children develope and mature at different rates. What I understood at 13, another children may have understood at 5. There's no definite number where a child turns xx years old and all of a sudden can make a decision like that. Some children never get to that point at all (the mentally retarded).
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jun 30, 2009 12:22:55 GMT -5
I think around 7 is the age of reasononing. But the whole deal is, most people do not become fully engaged into their faith until they are mature adults.
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Post by alfie on Jun 30, 2009 12:56:13 GMT -5
OK guys, what is it? Age 13 is the "age of accountability" or age 20? You guys tell me based on the Bible and tell me when you come up with a consensus. Well heck. Back then girls got married as young as ten years old. Maybe ten? As early as five I knew I was doing some things that my parents didn't like and I tried to hide what I did from my parents. But I didn't know I was a sinner and that I was violating God's law by what I was doing. |
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Post by alfie on Jun 30, 2009 14:50:54 GMT -5
From a book I am currently reading; In the fourteen century Catholics believed that fireflies were the souls of unbaptized infants. Sounds more like reincarnation than Christianity...don't you think? What is the name of your unbiased book? How do you feel about Martin Luther referring to born again Christians as "piles of manure that are freshly covered with a coating of snow"? And why don't you believe in John Wesley's teachings? The book is called A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century and it is written by a Jewish woman named Barbara Tuchman. I mentioned the book in another post. Where is your source for Luther's quote? I'm sure it came from a Catholic writer. What do I care about John Wesley. I attend a United Methodist church and so far there is nothing I disagree with that is taught by my church. Not all Methodist churches are Wesleyan anyway. |
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Post by alfie on Jun 30, 2009 14:57:06 GMT -5
The Orthodox church says Mary was a sinner. Err! Wrong answer! Try again! In IC.XC, Ramon Are there two Orthodox churches? The booklet I got from the Greek Orthodox church I toured says the Orthodox church does not believe in the Immaculate conception or the assumption of Mary. The booklet says Mary was a sinner just like everyone else. I'll mail the booklet to you if you don't believe me. |
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Post by Ramon on Jul 1, 2009 2:45:06 GMT -5
Alfie, you are corrrect about us not believing in the Roman Catholic concept of the Immaculate Conception because Orthodoxy have a different view on Original Sin (we called it Ancentral Sin) than Roman Catholics and Protestants. We do not believe that humans receive the guilt of Adam. We believe we receive the effects of the fall of Adam- Death, sickness, pain, unhealthy desire to sin, etc, but not quilt. Thus, the Theotokos had a "sinful nature" (Protestant phrase). Even the Theotokos was subject to this propensity to sin. She was born just like the rest of us. Second, we do believe that the Theotokos was ressurected and was assumed into heaven three days after her death. We called this event the Dormition of the Theotokos while the Roman Catholic Church calls it the Assumption of Mary. However, we differ in that we believe she died, while the common accepted belief in the RCC is that she did not and was just assumed into heaven.
And please quote from the booklet about the Theotokos sinfulness (the entire quote). Did the booklet said she committed actual sin or that she was born with Ancentral Sin (Original Sin) as we believe? I would have to read what the booklet said concerning this matter. Please quote, if you can, what the booklet said entirely.
In IC.XC,
Ramon
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