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Post by teresahrc on Jun 28, 2009 15:48:51 GMT -5
(From "Our Lady in the Gospel" a sermon by Blessed Cardinal John Newman) "To use strong words will not mend the matter; it is a fault within which can only gradually be overcome, but it is a deficiency, for this reason, if for no other. Depend upon it, the way to enter into the sufferings of the Son, is to enter into the sufferings of the Mother. Place yourselves at the foot of the Cross, see Mary standing there, looking up and pierced with the sword. Imagine her feelings, make them your own. Let her be your great pattern. Feel what she felt and you will worthily mourn over the death and passion of your and her Saviour. Have her simple faith, and you will believe well. Pray to be filled with the grace given to her. Alas, you must have many feelings she had not, the feeling of personal sin, of personal sorrow, of contrition, and self hate, but these will in a sinner naturally accompany the faith, the {96} humility, the simplicity which were her great ornaments. Lament with her, believe with her, and at length you will experience her blessedness of which the text speaks. None indeed can have her special prerogative, and be the Mother of the Highest, but you will have a share in that blessedness of hers which is greater, the blessedness of doing God's will and keeping His commandments." www.newmanreader.org/works/ninesermons/sermon7.html |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 28, 2009 15:52:50 GMT -5
St. Ambrose of Milan "Yes, truly blessed for having surpassed the priest (Zechariah). While the priest denied, the Virgin rectified the error. No wonder that the Lord, wishing to rescue the world, began his work with Mary. Thus she, through whom salvation was being prepared for all people, would be the first to receive the promised fruit of salvation." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariology_of_the_saints#Cyril_of_Alexandria |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 28, 2009 21:25:55 GMT -5
I'm confused....I thought most Catholics believe that Mary was sinless and didn't need a Savior.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 28, 2009 21:56:47 GMT -5
Of course she was sinless,
But she still needed a savior!! Everyone needs Jesus to be their Savior, why would Mary be an exception?
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 9:08:02 GMT -5
I'm confused....I thought most Catholics believe that Mary was sinless and didn't need a Savior. She is and doesn't.  |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 9:08:51 GMT -5
Of course she was sinless, But she still needed a savior!! Everyone needs Jesus to be their Savior, why would Mary be an exception? Mary was "saved" by God Himself before Jesus was born. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 9:13:30 GMT -5
Yeah, she was "saved" from the moment she was conceived. Jesus saved her before she ever sinned.
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 9:45:25 GMT -5
Is there Biblical evidence that supports that she was sinless and in no need of a Savior?
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 9:51:09 GMT -5
Is there Biblical evidence that supports that she was sinless and in no need of a Savior? Luke 1. Jesus is the fruit of Mary. If Mary was sinful, Jesus would've been born sinful. He is her "fruit". Also, Mary calls God (not Jesus) her Savior (not Jesus) in Luke 1. "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." Now, because she said this "before" Jesus was born, it means that she was saved "before" Jesus died on The Cross to save the rest of the world. Scripture doesn't lie. Mary was saved "before" Jesus was crucified. Plus, think about it...if you could send your kid to school in either a perfectly new unused bus or a ratty old unreliable dirty bus, which would you choose? Which "bus" did you think God chose to send His Son to The world? |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 9:51:16 GMT -5
are you asking me or Cepha?
I said she did need a savior. Jesus saved her from ever sinning before she was born.
Do babies sin? Do they still need Jesus to get into heaven?
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 9:53:22 GMT -5
Jesus is the savior of all mankind, but that doesn't mean everyone has sinned.
You can't tell me that an unborn child has sinned. But the Bible says that no one can see the Father except through Jesus
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 9:53:44 GMT -5
Heather, whoever. Where does it say the sinless need Jesus? Where does it say Mary was sinless period?
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 9:56:01 GMT -5
Yeah, she was "saved" from the moment she was conceived. Jesus saved her before she ever sinned. God formed her in the womb sinless. Why? Because Jesus was going to be born of her flesh. It couldn't have an ounce of sin in it or else that would be transferred by birth to Jesus. Even The Muslims know that Mary was born without sin!  |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 9:58:32 GMT -5
In the same place that it says babies and children automatically go to heaven without a profession of faith!
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 9:59:09 GMT -5
Steven, where does it say that?
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 10:02:40 GMT -5
Steven, where does it say that? Where does it say "what?  |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 10:04:06 GMT -5
That Mary was sinless in the womb, that she is free from sin, that she doesn't need a Savior...
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 10:05:42 GMT -5
That Mary was sinless in the womb, that she is free from sin, that she doesn't need a Savior... I quoted it already...Luke 1 She called God her Saviour. She was saved "before" Jesus was even born. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 10:06:54 GMT -5
Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant
Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.
2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.
1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.
1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.
Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.
Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.
Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.
Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.
Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.
Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.
Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.
Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.
Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.
Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.
Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.
Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.
Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.
Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.
Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 10:08:48 GMT -5
others in the OT called God their Savior...doesn't mean they were sinless.
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