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Post by emily445455 on Jun 30, 2009 10:09:11 GMT -5
Heather, signs and wonders were for the Jews. They are no longer needed now. At one time they were, but not now.
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Post by alfie on Jun 30, 2009 12:33:57 GMT -5
That's because Jesus hadn't died yet. After Jesus died and rose again, the Apostles were STILL told to confess their sins to each other. So what does His death have to do with any of this? Confessions were still going on after His death. Jesus didn't tell that to the apostles... he had disciples. And until Jesus had risen from the grave the Jews still had to go through the priest to get their sins forgiven. It just means if you are a believer you now have the power (with the help of the Holy Spirit who empowers us) to forgive someone who has wronged you. I can't do that on my own because normally I would want revenge against someone who did me wrong. The man had leprosy.The Jews believed that if someone had leprosy it was because he had sinned and was being punished by God. This isn't true. You don't have to sin to get leprosy. But in order to be accepted back into Jewish society he had to go through a purity ritual called Tumah. This was performed for the afflicted to assure that he can return to the community with a complete, unquestioned blessing of purity. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:18:31 GMT -5
1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Only one "mediator", but we are all (including Priests) "intercessors"! Didn't you see that when you copied 1 Tim? It's a few lines right above 2:5! Context Em...Context. Priest (like us) are "intercessors"! |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:19:35 GMT -5
1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; There's only one mediator, but we are all called to intercede on each other's behalf. And it pleases God. Why don't you want to please God? 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1 Tim. 2: 1-3 Why did you conveniently choose to leave out the first part of this chapter? We are all called to intercede on each other's behalf. Just like priests intercede on our behalf. Yeah! Couldn't have put it better if I wrote it myself!  |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:20:58 GMT -5
Heather, all of those things are good. That verse doesn't include "forgiving of sins". You were talking about "mediation" in relation to confession, right? So, it "does" have to do with it because you are the one who applied that one verse and disregarded the rest of the passage. Did you "mean" to take that mediator verse "out of context" to apply it here while meaning that the rest of the passage doesn't apply?  |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 10:21:06 GMT -5
I intercess for others all the time....doesn't mean I forgive their sins.
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:22:20 GMT -5
This is talking about disfellowshiping with people who believe another gospel. It doesn't mean forgiving sins, as Scripture states only God can spiritually forgive sins. That wasn't talking about other gospels. Where'd you get that from? It's clear as night and day. The Apostles are given authority to bind and to loosen sin "after" Peter was first given that authority. What does "bind and loosen" mean to you? |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:25:29 GMT -5
Heather, signs and wonders were for the Jews. They are no longer needed now. At one time they were, but not now. More "Diet Christianity"...take away this, take away that, disvalue baptism, take away the sacraments, the Eucharist, take books out of The Bible... Nothing in God's word is "no longer needed now" for mankind. All of it is needed. Every last bit of it. That's one difference I noticed between non-Catholic Christians and Catholic Christians....we are "greedy" for God and His Word! We want ALL of it! Not "part" of it, not just "some" of it, not a bit here and a bit there...but ALL of it!  Imagine being a Christian Em, that didn't have to give up anything in scripture, that could accept annointing oil and holy water and sacramentals (blessed prayer cloths) and all the books in The Bible! It's a wonderful thing! No confusion! Just one core belief! |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 10:25:41 GMT -5
Steven, I don't take what verses say alone, I compare them to what the rest of Scripture says. God alone has the authority to forgive sins.
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 10:27:42 GMT -5
Steven, from what I have learned about Catholicism, it's one of the most confusing religions out there. Behind probably Hinduism.
In Acts, whenever a sign was given...there was always an unsaved Jew around. I didn't know unsaved Jews visited Pentecostal churches every Sunday and Wednesday.
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:30:41 GMT -5
After Jesus died and rose again, the Apostles were STILL told to confess their sins to each other. So what does His death have to do with any of this? Confessions were still going on after His death. Jesus didn't tell that to the apostles... he had disciples. And until Jesus had risen from the grave the Jews still had to go through the priest to get their sins forgiven. It just means if you are a believer you now have the power (with the help of the Holy Spirit who empowers us) to forgive someone who has wronged you. I can't do that on my own because normally I would want revenge against someone who did me wrong. Acts 1. Read it on "what" makes an "Apostles". The 12 Disciples were also His Apostles. The rest were like us...disciples. So, why did Jesus command this "lepor" to do what The Law of Moses prescribed...the Purification Ritual? Looks like Jesus believed it too and guess what, if it's good enough for Jesus, I accept it too! Jesus commanded that this lepor He healed do what The Priest told him and He told him to "tell no man, but show yourself to The Priest". End of subject. Jesus separates the office of The Priesthood from a common man. That is undeniable in scripture. Andddd! Jesus told this lepor to do what The Priest told him to do giving the Priest authority over the man! And what is the Purification Ritual? Leviticus 14:2-57 2"This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing. (A)Now he shall be brought to the priest,
3and the priest shall go (B)out to the outside of the camp. Thus the priest shall look, and if the infection of leprosy has been healed in the leper,
4then the priest shall give orders to take two live clean birds and (C)cedar wood and a scarlet string and hyssop for the one who is to be cleansed.
5"The priest shall also give orders to slay the one bird in an earthenware vessel over running water.
6"As for the live bird, he shall take it together with (D)the cedar wood and the scarlet string and the (E)hyssop, and shall dip them and the live bird in the blood of the bird that was slain over the running water.
7"(F)He shall then sprinkle seven times the one who is to be cleansed from the leprosy and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the live bird go free over the open field.
8"(G)The one to be cleansed shall then wash his clothes and shave off all his hair and bathe in water and (H)be clean Now afterward, he may enter the camp, but he (I)shall stay outside his tent for seven days.
9"It will be on the seventh day that he shall shave off all his hair: he shall shave his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair. He shall then wash his clothes and bathe his body in water and (J)be clean.
10"Now on the eighth day he is to take two male lambs without defect, and a yearling ewe lamb without defect, and three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, and one (K)log of oil;
11and the priest who pronounces him clean shall present the man to be cleansed and the aforesaid before the LORD at the doorway of the tent of meeting.
12"Then the priest shall take the one male lamb and bring it for a (L)guilt offering, with the (M)log of oil, and present them as a (N)wave offering before the LORD.
13"Next he shall slaughter the male lamb in (O)the place where they slaughter the sin offering and the burnt offering, at the place of the sanctuary--for the guilt offering, (P)like the sin offering, belongs to the priest; it is most holy.
14"The priest shall then take some of the blood of the (Q)guilt offering, and the priest shall put it on (R)the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, and on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot.
15"The priest shall also take some of the (S)log of oil, and pour it into his left palm;
16the priest shall then dip his right-hand finger into the oil that is in his left palm, and with his finger sprinkle some of the oil seven times before the LORD.
17"Of the remaining oil which is in his palm, the priest shall put some on the right ear lobe of the one to be cleansed, and on the thumb of his right hand, and on the big toe of his right foot, on the blood of the guilt offering;
18while the rest of the oil that is in the priest's palm, he shall put on the head of the one to be cleansed. So the priest shall make (T)atonement on his behalf before the LORD.
19"The priest shall next offer the (U)sin offering and make atonement for the one to be cleansed from his uncleanness. Then afterward, he shall slaughter the burnt offering.
20"The priest shall offer up the burnt offering and the grain offering on the altar. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and (V)he will be clean.
21"(W)But if he is poor and his means are insufficient, then he is to take one male lamb for a (X)guilt offering as a wave offering to make atonement for him, and one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, and a (Y)log of oil,
22and two turtledoves or two young pigeons which are within his means, (Z)the one shall be a (AA)sin offering and the other a burnt offering.
23"(AB)Then the eighth day he shall bring them for his cleansing to the priest, at the doorway of the tent of meeting, before the LORD.
24"The priest shall take the lamb of the guilt offering and (AC)the log of oil, and the priest shall offer them for a wave offering before the LORD.
25"Next he shall slaughter the lamb of the guilt offering; and the priest is to take some of the blood of the guilt offering and put it on (AD)the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed and on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot.
26"The priest shall also pour some of the oil into his left palm;
27and with his right-hand finger the priest shall sprinkle some of the oil that is in his left palm seven times before the LORD.
28"The priest shall then put some of the oil that is in his palm on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, and on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot, on the place of the blood of the guilt offering.
29"Moreover, the rest of the oil that is in the priest's palm he shall put on the head of the one to be cleansed, to make atonement on his behalf before the LORD.
30"He shall then offer one of the turtledoves or young pigeons, which are within his means.
31"He shall offer what he can afford, (AE)the one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering, together with the grain offering. So the priest shall make atonement before the LORD on behalf of the one to be cleansed.
32"This is the law for him in whom there is an infection of leprosy, whose means are limited for his cleansing."
Cleansing a Leprous House
33The LORD further spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying:
34"(AF)When you enter the land of Canaan, which I give you for a possession, and I put a mark of leprosy on a house in the land of your possession,
35then the one who owns the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, 'Something like (AG)a mark of leprosy has become visible to me in the house.'
36"The priest shall then command that they empty the house before the priest goes in to look at the mark, so that everything in the house need not become unclean; and afterward the priest shall go in to look at the house.
37"So he shall look at the mark, and if the mark on the walls of the house has greenish or reddish depressions and appears deeper than the surface,
38then the priest shall come out of the house, to the doorway, and quarantine the house for seven days.
39"The priest shall return on the seventh day and make an inspection. If the mark has indeed spread in the walls of the house,
40then the priest shall order them to tear out the stones with the mark in them and throw them away at an unclean place outside the city.
41"He shall have the house scraped all around inside, and they shall dump the plaster that they scrape off at an unclean place outside the city.
42"Then they shall take other stones and replace those stones, and he shall take other plaster and replaster the house.
43"If, however, the mark breaks out again in the house after he has torn out the stones and scraped the house, and after it has been replastered,
44then the priest shall come in and make an inspection. If he sees that the mark has indeed spread in the house, it is (AH)a malignant mark in the house; it is unclean.
45"He shall therefore tear down the house, its stones, and its timbers, and all the plaster of the house, and he shall take them outside the city to an (AI)unclean place.
46"Moreover, whoever goes into the house during the time that he has quarantined it, becomes (AJ)unclean until evening.
47"Likewise, whoever lies down in the house shall wash his clothes, and whoever eats in the house shall wash his clothes.
48"If, on the other hand, the priest comes in and makes an inspection and the mark has not indeed spread in the house after the house has been replastered, then the priest shall pronounce the house clean because the mark has not reappeared.
49"To cleanse the house then, he shall take (AK)two birds and cedar wood and a scarlet string and hyssop,
50and he shall slaughter the one bird in an earthenware vessel over running water.
51"Then he shall take the cedar wood and the (AL)hyssop and the scarlet string, with the live bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird as well as in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times.
52"He shall thus cleanse the house with the blood of the bird and with the running water, along with the live bird and with the cedar wood and with the hyssop and with the scarlet string.
53"However, he shall let the live bird go free outside the city into the open field. So he shall make atonement for the house, and it will be clean."
54This is the law for any mark of leprosy--even for a (AM)scale,
55and for the (AN)leprous garment or house,
56and (AO)for a swelling, and for a scab, and for a bright spot--
57to teach when they are unclean and when they are clean. This is the law of leprosy. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 10:31:28 GMT -5
My study Bible explains that bind and loose were common terms in the Jewish language meaning to declare forbidden or to declare allowed.
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:31:39 GMT -5
I intercess for others all the time....doesn't mean I forgive their sins. Well, Jesus tells you that unless you forgive those who tresspass against you, your own sins will not be forgiven. And, in forgiving other's sins, you weren't granted that authority. Only The Apostles were and whomever they passed that authority on down to (kind of like your "pastor succession" belief). Only for most Christians, this goes back 2,000 years. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 10:32:41 GMT -5
Steven, I try to forgive the sins commited against me. But I cannot forgive them in full, only God can do that.
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:33:43 GMT -5
Steven, I don't take what verses say alone, I compare them to what the rest of Scripture says. God alone has the authority to forgive sins. Yes, and God alone has the authority to pass that authority on to men if He chooses to (which He does). The scripture is clear. Whoever's sins they retain, are retained. Whoever's sins are remitted, are remitted. Show me a verse (since you use other scriptures) that state that The Apostles don't have this authority given by God? Andddd not only do you have the authority to forgive sins (those committed against you), but you have the responsibility to forgive those tresspasses or your sins will not be forgiven when you are judged. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:37:47 GMT -5
Steven, from what I have learned about Catholicism, it's one of the most confusing religions out there. Behind probably Hinduism. It is. It's just like The Bible it created. Difficult to understand without the guidance of The Holy Spirit. Without The Holy Spirit, one cannot be a true Catholic. Catholics aren't "converted" to Catholicism. We are "called" to Catholicism. From the outside, it is difficult, but from the inside, it's beautiful. It took me 30 years to "come home" myself and I was raised Catholic. I can't imagine what it must be like for those who aren't universal Christians. You'd have to first, unbelieve everything you've been misindoctrinated with, then you'd have to start all over and you'd have to do the research yourself and if you are worthy, The Holy Spirit will guide you to The Truth. God gives gifts to whomever He wants to (Caths, Prots, non-Denoms, etc...). I won't question it just because I can't understand it. I have my gift. I appreciate it. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:42:11 GMT -5
My study Bible explains that bind and loose were common terms in the Jewish language meaning to declare forbidden or to declare allowed. See that? That's what happens when you're led by "men". To bind and loosen means to hold or to release. It means what it says. It comes from The Davidic Keys (did they teach you this in Bible study? That "this" is what Jesus was referring to?): Matthew 16:18 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Isaiah 22:22 22"Then I will set the key of the house of David on his shoulder, When he opens no one will shut, When he shuts no one will (C)open. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:48:52 GMT -5
Steven, I try to forgive the sins commited against me. But I cannot forgive them in full, only God can do that. Then you will "not" go to heaven. Not my words...but The Word of God. Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.If you are not merciful, you will not obtain mercy. Luke 6:37 Don't be hard on others, and God won't be hard on you.
Forgive others, and God will forgive you. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 12:02:10 GMT -5
Steven, Christ is simple, man make it complicated.
Also, no offence meant...but I'd rather believe my KJV study Bible than someone of the Catholic faith.
I try my best to forgive sins done against me. BUT, I can't forgive sins done against God and I cannot make that person repent and ask God to forgive them. I can only forgive those that were directed towards me, and not fully .....God has to forgive them fully.
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Post by teresahrc on Jul 1, 2009 13:08:47 GMT -5
Steven, from what I have learned about Catholicism, it's one of the most confusing religions out there. Behind probably Hinduism. In Acts, whenever a sign was given...there was always an unsaved Jew around. I didn't know unsaved Jews visited Pentecostal churches every Sunday and Wednesday. Emily, no where does it say "signs" are ONLY for Jews, it says that Jews "seek" signs. If you read carefully the Book of Acts, you will see that many signs were shown to Gentiles. Actually, God seems to often give people the opposite of what they want in this regard. Jews sought signs but instead they received the Logos. Greeks sought wisdom and God gave them the "foolishness" of signs and wonders. |
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