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Post by biblebeliever100 on Jun 29, 2009 10:37:00 GMT -5
So this is something I never understood. What is the background on confession to a priest? I understand that you must confess your sins to God in order to be blameless. Yes Jesus died for our sins, all of them, before we even commit them, but why is there a need for a middle man?
Thanks for your input!
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 10:47:24 GMT -5
So this is something I never understood. What is the background on confession to a priest? I understand that you must confess your sins to God in order to be blameless. Yes Jesus died for our sins, all of them, before we even commit them, but why is there a need for a middle man? Thanks for your input! Welcome aboard BB1. When Jesus healed a lepor, He told him to tell no "man", but to go show hismelf to a Priest and to do what the Priest commanded of him (which was the ritual of atonement and ritual purification). Here, Jesus separates men in general from The Priesthood giving them authority to prescribe this ritual to those healed by Christ. When one confesses, it's not to The Priest himself, but to God. The Priest is only there to offer advice on how to avoid the occasion of sin (how to work at not repeating it). He passes on forgiveness not in his own name, but in the name of God (as he is authorized to do so in our faith). Basically, it's like when we sin and tell our friends about something bad we've done and want advice on how to handle the situation, only in univeral Christianity, we've been doing this for thousands of years based on the Jewish ritual of atonement. One must already have confessed to God by the time they go to The Priest. The Priest is there to offer advice. If said person should died before they got to see a Priest (hit by a car, accident, etc...), if their heart was truly repentant, then they of course would be forgiven. Non-Catholics don't have the benefit of the spiritual guidance of a Priest because they don't recognize The Priesthood as a valid order. However, if a Protestant is truly sorry for their sin, God judges that repentance and they are forgiven. We don't have the market on forgiveness, just the option of being helped and led by Priests who devote 100% of their lives to serving God by serving us.  Also, Jesus didn't die for "all" sin, but for original sin. He removed the curse of Adam. This did'nt give mankind the permission to sin again forever without having to repent or to change their lives (Catholics believe in eternal conversion, an ongoing purification of the soul as very few actually change overnight and become sinless "after" being born again...The Apostles being the greatest example of this with their failures despite all their knowledge and personal relationship with Christ). This is my belief. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 10:54:39 GMT -5
So this is something I never understood. What is the background on confession to a priest? I understand that you must confess your sins to God in order to be blameless. Yes Jesus died for our sins, all of them, before we even commit them, but why is there a need for a middle man? Thanks for your input! I don't really want to give my own personal input. Here is what the Bible says about it. 21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. John 20 16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5 |
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Post by biblebeliever100 on Jun 29, 2009 11:50:31 GMT -5
Ok, now... I have a few more questions if you don't mind! How does Jesus separate priests from 'regular men.' Where does that concept/idea/rule come from? From what I have learned, all men are equal and none are 'above' any others in relation to God.
I also realize that confession is not to the priest himself as well. I just don't understand why people have to ask another man how to not repeat sin when God clearly tells and shows you through His Word, The Bible. God inspired men through the Holy Spirit to write the Bible and chose specific exact words, and they are so simple that a child can understand them and do God's Will. So, I just don't understand why some else has to 'interpret' the Bible or give advice from it. God said it best; so again why is there a need for the middle man. I realize the the entire Bible wasn't written TO us, but it was written FOR us to learn. We learn by prophecy and God gives us clear directions for what we need to be doing. It clearly says in the Bible in 2 Peter 1:20,21 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." If others are reading the Bible and 'explaining' it to others then they are 'interpreting' it in their own words...
I do understand that there is need for counsel, and it is important, but men are to seek counsel from a multitude, not just one person as shown in Proverbs 24:6 "For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety." So based on this, one person isn't sufficient, it can even be dangerous.
I'd also like to ask what you mean by 'universal Christianity.' Being a Christian simply means that you believe in God and Jesus and Jesus died for our sins so that we are forgiven and have that close personal relationship with Him. We are cleansed by His blood.... which is the only way to get to heaven. Nothing that we can do can 'clean up' our sin. Only through Jesus. He saved us from ALL our sins and He was the ultimate price. I know several groups of people that would call themselves "Christians" but do not go to a priest to confess their sins, so what do you consider universal Christianity?
Jesus did die for all our sins and nothing we can do can eternally separate us from Him. And yes we are all born in the image of Adam and not of God. We are that two-part being and not three. Jesus died for us so that we could become that three-part being in the image of God. You are correct that this gives us no permission to sin...absolutely not. If we are truly saved through Jesus Christ we will have no desire to sin...God can help us. We are by no means sinless either. We were sinners and will be sinners... we are human and we do make mistakes, and will sin, even unknowingly sometimes. That is the beauty of what Jesus did though...all of those sins are forgiven if we in our hearts repent!!
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Post by biblebeliever100 on Jun 29, 2009 11:52:15 GMT -5
And.. I just want to say that you shouldn't trust anything I or anyone else say! Question everything I say! Go to our final authority and look for yourselves!!
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 12:13:26 GMT -5
Ok, now... I have a few more questions if you don't mind! Not at all! Note how Jesus states "tell no man, BUT show yourself to a Priest" here... Luke 5:14And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.Yes and not. Men are equal, but Priests are separated from men (as shown above). The Pharisees (who's authority Jesus defended) were Priests. The word Pharisee literally means "to be set apart". Well, the Bible is full of scriptures where we are instructed to confess our sins to one another. It's also a reflection of Christ's work. When He forgave someone of their sins, He did what? He gave them instructions afterwards. Priests who serve Christ do so in His name and thus repeat what Christ did. The Word of God is not just written on paper with ink that can be manipulated to create new beliefs (as is proven with the Jehovahs' Witnesses bilbles along with others). Books can fool people. The Word of God is however written on every man's heart so that when we see it on paper, we recognize what is truth and what is not. Those led by The Holy Spirit can discern what is truth and what is not, but those not led by The Holy Spirit can be fooled by anything they read. If I put that Jesus wrote a bike to temple in 10,000 bibles and distributed them to a population that had no knowledge of Christ and they came to believe in that bible, no matter what you told them, they would believe that Jesus rode a bike to temple even though no bikes existed back then. Of course, they'd be 100% wrong. Yet you believe that God chose men to create the Bible? Doesn't that contradict itself? Men are good enough for God to use to create The Bible, but not to interpret it? Think about how many mistranslations there are of scriptures in bible versions. Which of the countless of "versions" is the true version? There can only be "1" true version, right? Which one is it? Paper and ink is easily manipulated by mankind. But The Word that is written on man's heart cannot be corrupted because it is put there by God. See, now you're parsing when God chose men and when He didn't. He chose them to create The Bible, but not to interpret it? But then, He chose men to prophesize? How is it ok when scripture is prohesized? How does one discern that what they are being told is prophecy in scripture is true? For us, one that walks with The Holy Spirit in perfect communion cannot be misled. They are protected by God if they are in His favor. God would not abandon those to confusion who have favor with Him. No person is sufficient. Whatever good counsel they give is not of their own fruition, but of The Holy Spirit. Yes, The Holy Spirit uses men to teach and to guide, but for us, it is The Holy Spirit that is teaching the truth. The speaker/writer is just an instrument. A perfectly good example that scripture needed to be interpreted to someone who didn't have the guidance of The Holy Spirit is that of Philip and The Ethipian. The Ethiopian was reading scripture, but it wasn't revealed to him. But The Holy Spirit moved Philiip to reveal the scripture to The Ethiopian. Are you familiar with this story? Acts 8
Philip and the Ethiopian 26Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[d]eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet. 29The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.
31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Universal Christianity is the body of believers that have existed since before denominationalism was created in Europe in the 16th Century. Before there were denominations, there was only one Church. All other Christian sects sprang from this Church taking it's Bible and various doctrines and reinterpreting them to fit their belief systems that didn't exist before the 16th Century. Most were based on regional ideologies or on certain religious leader's teachings and they were given names according to their founders (Church of England, Lutherism, Calvinism, etc...) or based upon events in Christian history (Pentecost, Baptism, etc...). There are all types of Christians. Just because a person chooses to worship in one particular denominational sect of Christianity, it doesn't in anyway detract from their being a Christian. It is Jesus Who decides who is and who isn't a Christian (not religions founded by men). Agreed? One doesn't even "have to" go to any particular church to meet the criteria expressed in scripture as to what constitutes a Christian. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 12:14:30 GMT -5
And.. I just want to say that you shouldn't trust anything I or anyone else say! Question everything I say! Go to our final authority and look for yourselves!! OMGosh! That is EXACTLY what I tell people! I say the exact same thing! Don't just take my word for it! Study for yourselves! LOL! ;D |
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Post by alfie on Jun 29, 2009 13:44:47 GMT -5
So this is something I never understood. What is the background on confession to a priest? I understand that you must confess your sins to God in order to be blameless. Yes Jesus died for our sins, all of them, before we even commit them, but why is there a need for a middle man? Thanks for your input! Welcome aboard BB1. When Jesus healed a lepor, He told him to tell no "man", but to go show hismelf to a Priest and to do what the Priest commanded of him (which was the ritual of atonement and ritual purification). That's because Jesus hadn't died yet. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 14:07:19 GMT -5
Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blashphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 20:48:34 GMT -5
21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. John 20
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 20:57:18 GMT -5
1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 21:10:50 GMT -5
Psalm 51. A prayer for cleansing by David to God and God alone...no one else.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 22:53:22 GMT -5
You are right, Jesus is the one mediator.
And of course you ask God for forgiveness, that is the whole point of confession.
But you can't say that confessing your sins to another person is unbiblical.
And not only that, but Jesus gave authority to His apostles to forgive sins (not by their own authority, but by the authority given to them by God.)
Now, I know that there may be a wide range of view points reading this. Maybe some of you are against "Spiritual gifts" and maybe there are Charismatics/Pentecostals reading this.
But, for the sake of those who DO believe in signs and wonders, this concept of confession shouldn't sound strange at all. If someone has a gift of healing and they pray for someone to be healed, and the person is healed, then who did it? You would never say that the person praying was the one that healed them. God healed them through the person. Same with confession. God forgives the person through the priest.
Now, people that don't believe that God does miracles today, or heals etc. would probably have a harder time understanding this concept.
I'm not sure what you all believe about that, so you can decide for yourself.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 29, 2009 23:16:07 GMT -5
Confession in the presence of Priests is a Ancient practice, and it 100% rooted in Scriptures. Jesus gave authority to His Holy Apostles to forgive sins. The Priests have no authority on there own, but it is given to them from High. Of course, God alone can forgive sins, yet he do so through His Priests, just like in the Old Testament. The Old Testament Priests was responsible for the sins of the people. They was told by God to make atonement for the people, and through there atonement there sins was forgiven (i.e., Lev 4:20). Also, please read, 1 Cor 2:10. Like Saint Paul, the Priest is acting in the person of Christ.
Confessing our sins to another is not anti-Biblical. Saint James told the Early Christians to confess there sins to another (James 5:16).
The confession is made to God, and God alone grants forgiveness. This is Orthodox teaching. This is the exhortations the Priest says to the penitent in the Greek text of the confession service. Before the penitent makes his confession, "My brother, inasmuch as you have come to God and to me, be not ashamed, for you speak NOT TO ME, BUT TO GOD, before whom you stand." And then after the penitent has made his confession, "My spiritual child, who has confessed to my humble self, I, humble and a sinner, have NOT power on earth to forgive sins, but God alone . . ." and then the text goes on to quote John 20:23.
It is God who effects all the Holy Sacraments through Christ in the Holy Spirit. In fact, Christ exercises his ministry to the Church through the ministry of the priesthood. Christ rules the church and exercises his teaching ministry through the bishops. He presides at the Eucharist through the celebrant of the Divine Liturgy. He absolves and remits sins through the absolution of the priest. He joins the couple through the blessing of the priest in marriage. In every case, it is not the priest exercising an autonomous power he has received from God, but Christ exercising his ministry through the priest. The priest is but the visible icon of Christ who works invisibly in his Church. The Priests have no power, but God use them to deliver his healing power. One confesses to God in the presence of the priest.
It is Christ himself, then, that is the minister of confession. We are to approach it in a Christ-centered way.
In IC.XC,
Ramon
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 23:49:44 GMT -5
1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; There's only one mediator, but we are all called to intercede on each other's behalf. And it pleases God. Why don't you want to please God? 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1 Tim. 2: 1-3 Why did you conveniently choose to leave out the first part of this chapter? We are all called to intercede on each other's behalf. Just like priests intercede on our behalf. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 30, 2009 0:17:07 GMT -5
Welcome aboard BB1. When Jesus healed a lepor, He told him to tell no "man", but to go show hismelf to a Priest and to do what the Priest commanded of him (which was the ritual of atonement and ritual purification). That's because Jesus hadn't died yet. After Jesus died and rose again, the Apostles were STILL told to confess their sins to each other. So what does His death have to do with any of this? Confessions were still going on after His death. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 30, 2009 8:55:38 GMT -5
Heather, all of those things are good. That verse doesn't include "forgiving of sins".
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 30, 2009 8:59:15 GMT -5
YES they do Emily!!
20And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
John 20
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 30, 2009 9:07:17 GMT -5
This is talking about disfellowshiping with people who believe another gospel. It doesn't mean forgiving sins, as Scripture states only God can spiritually forgive sins.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 30, 2009 9:29:45 GMT -5
This is talking about disfellowshiping with people who believe another gospel. It doesn't mean forgiving sins, as Scripture states only God can spiritually forgive sins. Emily, where does it say "disfellowshipping" in that verse? It LITERALY talks about forgiving sins. Are you arguing with me, or with the Bible? Yes, only God can forgive sins, every Catholic knows that. And every Catholic knows that only God can heal. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: 'The kingdom of heaven has come near.' 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10 4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." So he said to the paralyzed man, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7 Then the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to human beings. Matthew 9 Jesus most certainly gave the Apostles authority to heal the sick(though we all know that it is only God that heals). Yet, you are saying that they have no authority to forgive sins, even thought the Bible literally says that? Emily, which is easier to say"your sins are forgiven" or "get up and walk"? |
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