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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 15:40:21 GMT -5
Why don't you believe Jesus when He redefines what the consecrated unleavened bread and wine are?
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Post by Cepha on Jun 23, 2008 15:32:30 GMT -5
John 6
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After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias.
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And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
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And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.
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And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
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When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
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And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.
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Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.
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One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him,
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There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?
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And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
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And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
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When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
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Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
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Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
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When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
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And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,
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And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.
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And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.
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So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
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But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.
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Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
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The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;
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(Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)
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When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
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And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
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Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
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Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
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Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
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Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
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Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
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Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
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For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
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Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
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And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
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But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
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All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
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For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
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And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
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And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
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And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
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Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
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No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
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Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
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Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
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I am that bread of life.
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Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
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This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
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I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
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The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
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Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
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Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
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For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
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He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
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As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
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This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
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These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
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Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
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When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
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What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
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It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
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But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
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And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
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From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
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Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
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Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
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And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
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Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
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He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
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Post by knuckle on Jun 23, 2008 17:35:30 GMT -5
Cepha wrote---Why don't you believe Jesus when He redefines what the consecrated unleavened bread and wine are?
and also---They don't transform into human flesh and blood.
Brother what are you trying to say? If you are saying that by faith we believe Christ calls things to be as they are not then we agree......
Are the elements still bead and wine or not?
We believe that we are saved by grace through faith and nothing (not being dunked in water or a bite of bread or a sip of wine) in the physical adds or subtracts from this but are done in memorial to it.
water is still water bread still bread and wine still wine no saving grace in it----but having been saved are symbols of it
much love----------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Jun 23, 2008 19:36:54 GMT -5
The very "doing" of these things is an expression of our faith which is essential. If we don't "do" what we are taught, then we our faith is dead faith and nothing dead enters heaven. Jesus clearly said that unless, let me repeat that, "unless" you eat the Eucharist (The Thanksgiving Meal) and drink the wine, you will not be saved. Period. If this is "not" done by the Believer, then he is not saved. You will not enter the Kingdom Of Heaven. It's not the physical sacraments that save you, but your obedience to Jesus in doing what He commands of you...partaking of The Eucharist and Wine that has been consecrated as He, a Priest, consecrated it. No one believes (at least no reasonable person does) that bread or water or wine or altars or tithing or faith alone saves you.  |
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Post by knuckle on Jun 23, 2008 19:47:48 GMT -5
Hi Cepha----------------
Then I guess we are an unreasonable lot for we believe that we are saved by grace through faith ALONE and works and baptism and every thing else comes after
much love-----------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Jun 23, 2008 20:09:12 GMT -5
Hi Cepha---------------- Then I guess we are an unreasonable lot for we believe that we are saved by grace through faith ALONE and works and baptism and every thing else comes after much love-----------knuckle Here's where I get my belief from... James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." You can't be saved by faith alone and, and, and, and, etc... With all those "ands", it no longer is faith alone. It is "faith alone 'and'". Faith alone means just faith and nothing else. That will not justify you with God. One can have all the faith in the world, but unless one does what is required by God, they will not be justified to Him. And thus, will not be received into Heaven. It's like saying that a car runs only on gas, but you have to add water to it to get it to run on gas only. It either runs on gas without water, or gas with water. If it only runs on gas with water, then one cannot say that that car runs on gas alone. A more proper statement from you would've been: "Then I guess we are an unreasonable lot for we believe that we are saved by grace through faith and works and baptism and every thing else comes after" |
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Post by knuckle on Jun 23, 2008 20:12:17 GMT -5
And justification is not salvation
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Post by Cepha on Jun 23, 2008 20:17:10 GMT -5
And justification is not salvation One cannot be saved until they are justified to God first. Right? Can an unjustified person be saved? |
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Post by knuckle on Jun 23, 2008 20:28:19 GMT -5
Yes absolutely
Justification is our being called righteous when in fact all our righteousness is as filthy rags Abraham was justified because he believed then acted upon it,the 10 lepers were healed because they believed and acted upon it, faith first then justification believe and repent,believe and be baptized believe and partake believe and you shall cast out demons and move mountains and do all the works Christ has set forth for us to do,but with out faith we can do nothing
Jesus said he didn't come to save the righteous but to save the sinner and here in is the faith that saves that He went to that cross willingly knowing that Father would raise Him up the third day.
much love-----------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Jun 23, 2008 21:24:13 GMT -5
Here is the traditional Christian definition of what Justification means; it is being "made" righteous by God.
In James 2:21, we are told that it was Abrahams works that justified him to God. ("Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?")
Right, the righteous don't need to be justified...they are already justified. So, in order to be saved, the sinner must first be justified.
Satan believes that Jesus is The Son of God and that He is The Saviour of mankind. But that "faith" in Jesus dieing for all mankind won't save him. In fact, The Bible even states that demons have faith in Jesus, but they are not saved.
Why? Becuause they are not justified to God.
No matter how much they believe in everything that Jesus is,
they will not be saved.
James 2:
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Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
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But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
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Post by knuckle on Jun 24, 2008 5:16:18 GMT -5
Cepha----------
by who's faith are we saved?
much love------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Jun 24, 2008 6:47:18 GMT -5
Cepha---------- by who's faith are we saved? much love------------knuckle We aren't saved by anyone's faith. We are saved by God's grace. It's not because we believe that we are saved. There were many who believed and were still condemned to hell. Faith does not save. Basically, "faith alone" only saves a place for you in hell. Here's a good example of those who had faith, yet that was all they had. Without works, their faith was not enough to save them. Because of that, the didn't have grace. All they had was faith alone and they were sent away in judgement. Faith alone doesn't justify one to God. And nowhere in the Bible does it say that one is saved through their faith alone. That belief never existed in Christianity. It was created by Martin Luther and he even added the word "alone" to create the phrase "faith alone" to Romans in an attempt to devise a new doctrine. Matthew 25: 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. |
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Post by knuckle on Jun 25, 2008 4:59:55 GMT -5
good morning cepha------------
Brother,we are saved by Jesus' faith---not ours Gal 3:22 But the scripture locks up all together under sin, that the promise out of Jesus Christ's faith may be given to those who are believing."
much love------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Jun 25, 2008 8:11:17 GMT -5
good morning cepha------------ Brother,we are saved by Jesus' faith---not ours Gal 3:22 But the scripture locks up all together under sin, that the promise out of Jesus Christ's faith may be given to those who are believing." much love------------knuckle I think you're misreading that. The faith it is speaking of is not Jesus Christ's faith "in" us, but of our faith "in" Him (assuming that you meant Jesus' faith). If you read most of the translations, you'll see that most say "in" Christ. When The KJV says "of", it means our own faith of Christ (not His faith). Jesus doesn't have to have faith. He's God. He knows what we believe. And that is true...but it doesn't say by "faith alone" and The Bible says that by faith alone we are "not" saved. Remember all of those people (the goats) that Jesus condemns to hell because they had no good works? If their faith alone was enough to save them, why did He not save them? They believed in Him, they had accepted Him as their Lord, yet He still condemned them to hell and what was His reasoning? Because they didn't have good works. Here are the various translations of the same verse: Galatians 3:22 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- International Standard Version (©2008) But the Scripture has captured everything by means of sin's net, so that what was promised by the faithfulness of the Messiah might be granted to those who believe. New American Standard Bible (©1995) But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) But Scripture states that the whole world is controlled by the power of sin. Therefore, a promise based on faith in Jesus Christ could be given to those who believe. King James Bible But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. American King James Version But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. American Standard Version But the scriptures shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Bible in Basic English However, the holy Writings have put all things under sin, so that that for which God gave the undertaking, based on faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who have such faith. Douay-Rheims Bible But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise, by the faith of Jesus Christ, might be given to them that believe. Darby Bible Translation but the scripture has shut up all things under sin, that the promise, on the principle of faith of Jesus Christ, should be given to those that believe. English Revised Version Howbeit the scripture hath shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Webster's Bible Translation But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Weymouth New Testament But Scripture has shown that all mankind are the prisoners of sin, in order that the promised blessing, which depends on faith in Jesus Christ, may be given to those who believe. World English Bible But the Scriptures imprisoned all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Young's Literal Translation but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing. ____________________________________________________ Let's read what comes before and after Verse 22... Galations 3: 21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Here, The Law is being spoken about so the next verse is going to be in relation to this verse regarding The Law 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. I read this as we are all under the curse of original sin and that by our faith of/in Christ, we are delivered from that sin. For those of us who believe in Him, we are given a promise. But what is that promise? That comes in the next few verses... 23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Here, it states (to me at least) that before Christ, we were subject to The Law, but that after Christ, we would have a reason to believe in our being delivered...hope. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. The Law was the precursor "to" Christ. The teachings that would allow us to receive Christ and thus be justified by our faith "in" Christ (after which we would then be saved). 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Once we are with Christ, the we are subject to Him, not The Law anymore. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. We are then grafted into The Family of God because of our faith in Jesus. So it's our faith "in" Jesus, not Jesus' faith, that saves us. |
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Post by knuckle on Jun 25, 2008 15:26:45 GMT -5
Here we disagree the faith that saves is Christ's faith not in us but in Father== this faith is what makes Christ the savior of all men especially(but not exclusively) them that believe
much love-------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Jun 25, 2008 17:35:09 GMT -5
Here we disagree the faith that saves is Christ's faith not in us but in Father== this faith is what makes Christ the savior of all men especially(but not exclusively) them that believe much love-------------knuckle I believe that it was His sacrifice that makes Him our saviour. His "work". |
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Post by knuckle on Jun 25, 2008 18:10:26 GMT -5
UGGGh
round and round we go works are the evidence of faith
much love-----------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Jun 25, 2008 18:39:56 GMT -5
UGGGh round and round we go works are the evidence of faith much love-----------knuckle I didn't say that to imply anything about it being evidence. You said faith makes Jesus our Saviour. I say it was His sacrifice that made Him our Saviour. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 28, 2008 22:18:56 GMT -5
When did the "symbol only" belief begin?
When did it reappear in the Protestant movement? The early "reformers" believed in the literal eucharist. Did the symbol only belief begin in America?
Teresa
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 28, 2008 22:26:24 GMT -5
You know what? Just today, I remembered a dream that I had a few years ago. I was still a protestant then, with no interest in being Catholic.
Anyway, the dream was really long and vivid and had to do with some of my goals in life which I won't talk about now.
But a very vivid part of my dream was that I saw a large painting above a mantle, and I saw that it was by me because it was painted in my "style" that I paint. The scene was the Lord's Supper, the wine and bread were on the table but everyone had left (presumably to continue on with the rest of the story in Scripture). When I looked at it, I noticed that I had painted the table with incorrect angles, and I stared at it thinking "the perspective is off" all the while wondering why the perspective was wrong.
After I woke up, I tried and tried to figure out what it meant, but I didn't understand until just recently when I received the Eucharist for the first time as a Catholic.
My perspective on the Lord's Supper has definitely changed! (I just started a painting of the Lord's Supper too)
Teresa
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