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Post by Ramon on Jun 29, 2009 23:36:46 GMT -5
Verse 17 doesn't make much sense if it is Mary. Why? Revelation12 has strong implications to Mary, the Theotokos. Many of the Fathers saw it as a reference to the Theotokos. I see no contradiction with the interpretation of Revelation 12 that renders it being a reference to the Theotokos, the perfect symbol of Israel and the Church. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 30, 2009 9:11:48 GMT -5
Revelation 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ
Okay, the dragon was wroth with the woman...makes sense.
He wanted to make war with her seed....doesn't quite makes sense, since a virgin woman doesn't have a seed.
Which keep the commandeds of God....okay that makes sense, Jesus did keep the commandments of His Father.
And have the testimony of Jesus Christ....wait what? Jesus Christ having the testimony of Himself? That makes no sense.
So half of this verse doens't make any sense if the woman is Mary.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jun 30, 2009 12:31:23 GMT -5
none of it makes sense to me lol
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Post by alfie on Jun 30, 2009 13:04:57 GMT -5
Revelation 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ Okay, the dragon was wroth with the woman...makes sense. He wanted to make war with her seed....doesn't quite makes sense, since a virgin woman doesn't have a seed. Which keep the commandeds of God....okay that makes sense, Jesus did keep the commandments of His Father. And have the testimony of Jesus Christ....wait what? Jesus Christ having the testimony of Himself? That makes no sense. So half of this verse doens't make any sense if the woman is Mary. I think the Bible says the "seed of the woman" when refering to Mary which can only mean that Mary didn't have one of her eggs fertilized. Rather she carried the seed placed in her by the Holy Spirit. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 30, 2009 15:24:32 GMT -5
Alfie, seed in the Bible refers to a man's sperm. Women don't have seed in the first place, especially not a virgin woman.
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 11:00:21 GMT -5
Revelation 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ Okay, the dragon was wroth with the woman...makes sense. The Dragon (Satan) is mad at Mary for bringing Jesus into the world. God said women have seed (offspring): Genesis 3:15 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.Since Satan doesn't have any physical seed, it's talking about those that follow him (like it talks about those that follow Jesus). But the verse isn't talking about Jesus. By verse 17, Jesus was already ressurected in Rev 12:5... 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Those "which keep the commandments of God" are those that follow Christ. Us. Christians. Therefore, we are the "seed" (offspring) of Mary (the "woman" [as Jesus always called her!] who gave birth to Jesus Christ). Exactly! Because the verse calls "us" the offspring of the woman who gave birth to Jesus! Jesus is our salvation (our eternal lives) which came through her womb! Where did you get your life from? Your mother's womb! Our spiritual life came from Mary's womb! Hence, she's your mother! That is "if" you follow Christ and are His sister and God is your Father. . It doesn't because you mix up the people being spoken of in the verse Emily. It's not talking about Jesus, but about those who follow Jesus. Again, Jesus was already in Heaven when all this happened. And you know what it was that happened? This was when Satan attacked those who believed in Jesus and the great Christian Persecutions began by The Pharisees (The Jews) and The Romans! How do we know it's them? Because it happened "after" Jesus was taken to Heaven! So, this is talking about us... Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.Where you are confused is where it says that The Dragon (Satan) went off to make war with the "remnant" of her seed (us) since Jesus, her first seed that was taken up into heaven in verse 5 of Revelation 12 wasn't there anymore. So that left The Apostles and the disciples. rem·nant 1 a: a usually small part, member, or trace remaining b: a small surviving group —often used in pluralSee that? The Church left behind by Jesus are The Remnant of her (Mary's) seed because we were given our spiritual everlasting life through her womb (which is Jesus Christ). Israel couldn't have done that because Israel rejected Jesus Christ. They are the reason Jesus was crucified and was tortured and they rejected Him. What mother would reject their own son? Mary didn't reject Jesus! She loved Him and suffered for Him and the prophecy was made true, that a dagger should pierce her heart with sorrow. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 11:12:22 GMT -5
Revelation 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ Okay, the dragon was wroth with the woman...makes sense. He wanted to make war with her seed....doesn't quite makes sense, since a virgin woman doesn't have a seed. Which keep the commandeds of God....okay that makes sense, Jesus did keep the commandments of His Father. And have the testimony of Jesus Christ....wait what? Jesus Christ having the testimony of Himself? That makes no sense. So half of this verse doens't make any sense if the woman is Mary. I think the Bible says the "seed of the woman" when refering to Mary which can only mean that Mary didn't have one of her eggs fertilized. Rather she carried the seed placed in her by the Holy Spirit. Gen 3:15 also states that this "woman" has seed.  |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 11:43:47 GMT -5
none of it makes sense to me lol Hurry up! Runnn to Confirmation Marcie! LOL! |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 12:08:21 GMT -5
Alfie, seed in the Bible refers to a man's sperm. Women don't have seed in the first place, especially not a virgin woman. Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.  Was God lieing?  |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 12:21:42 GMT -5
Gen 3:15 is talking about Jesus, since women don't have seeds. We have eggs.
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 12:29:45 GMT -5
Gen 3:15 is talking about Jesus, since women don't have seeds. We have eggs. So you're calling Jesus a "her"? It says it's "her seed" (which is Jesus!)! Jesus is "her seed" (Mary's Seed)! And, we are "her seed" as well in Revelations 12:17! So, for someone to say that women "don't" have seed, their wrong. The Bible says women have seed! You cannot say that The Bible doesn't say that phrase "her seed" in Gen 3! ;D |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 12:31:04 GMT -5
Israel is called "her" in that verse.
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 12:36:32 GMT -5
Israel is called "her" in that verse. Israel cannot be "her" because Israel was the one who persecuted Jesus Christ and the woman who gave birth to Him (which is Mary!)! Are you saying that Israel persecuted Israel? In Revelation 12:17, it states clearly that this is the "woman" that bore Christ. Israel is a "nation". And, do you believe that Jesus could be born of a mother that rejects Him and that persecuted His Disciples and that lied about Him to The Roman Empire and that said these words about her own Son... "Crucify Him!"  |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 12:47:03 GMT -5
When Jesus was born Israel wasn't shouting crucify Him. Even if my father wanted to kill me...I still came from his seed.
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 12:52:08 GMT -5
When Jesus was born Israel wasn't shouting crucify Him. Even if my father wanted to kill me...I still came from his seed. When Jesus was born, Israel's King Herod set out to hunt Him down and kill The Baby Jesus! But His "real" mother took Him away! And saved Jesus from Israel's leader! |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 12:53:29 GMT -5
And does that falsify my statement? If my father tried to kill me, he wouldn't be any less of my father....coming from his seed.
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Post by teresahrc on Jul 1, 2009 15:02:06 GMT -5
Wait a min. You guys have me all confused.
Genesis says "HER SEED" . How can you trying to explain that away?
I don't know how this is complicated? Who gives birth to their children? The Mother. I don't know why anyone is still arguinging this.
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Post by Ramon on Jul 1, 2009 15:11:11 GMT -5
Here is the online definition of the word "seed" seed (sd) n. pl. seeds or seed 1. A ripened plant ovule containing an embryo. 2. A propagative part of a plant, as a tuber or spore. 3. Seeds considered as a group. 4. The seed-bearing stage of a plant. 5. Something that resembles a seed, as a tiny bubble in a piece of glass. 6. a. A small amount of material used to start a chemical reaction. b. A small crystal used to start a crystallization process. 7. Medicine A form of a radioactive isotope that is used to localize and concentrate the amount of radiation administered to a body site, such as a tumor. 8. A source or beginning; a germ. 9. Offspring; progeny.
10. Family stock; ancestry.11. Sperm; semen. 12. A seed oyster or oysters; spat. 13. Sports A player who has been seeded for a tournament, often at a given rank: a top seed. www.thefreedictionary.com/seed" the source, origin, or beginning of anything the seeds of revolt
Archaic
1. descendants; posterity
2. ancestry"www.yourdictionary.com/seedSo there, Revelation 12:17 makes perfect sense if it applies to the Ever-Virgin Mary. I believe Em is unaware that the word "seed" have multiple meanings. Even Em would agree that men do not have plant seeds! LOL! And I don't have apple seeds in my body! LOL! In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 15:30:27 GMT -5
Heather, "her" in Gensis 3 refers to the nation of Israel. Women don't have seeds....that is a scientifical fact.
Ramon, Seed in this sense means sperm and lineage though the men who contain the sperm.
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Post by Ramon on Jul 1, 2009 15:39:04 GMT -5
Heather, "her" in Gensis 3 refers to the nation of Israel. Women don't have seeds....that is a scientifical fact. And men don't have seeds either. Who told you we have plant seed? We don't have this Em:  LOL! Ramon, Seed in this sense means sperm and lineage though the men who contain the sperm. No, Seed in YOUR sense, with no exception, means sperm and lineage though the men who contain the sperm. Yes, the word "seed" is used in the Bible to refer to men' sperm, but it can also be used to denote the offspring of a person, in this case, a women (Revelation 12:17). Only you believe that the word "seed" have one meaning in Scripture. I already show you that the word "seed" can mean simply "offspring". I rest my case! If we take the word "seed" as referring to a offspring, Revelation 12:17 makes perfect sense if it refers to Mary, the Thetokos. And Genesis 3 was talking about the women and not Israel. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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