Revelation 12...

[Cepha]

Revelation 12
1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;

2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.

3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.

4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child.

5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;

8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death.

12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast down to the earth, he persecuted the woman that brought forth the man child.

14 And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman water as a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:

[Cepha]

Revelation 12

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1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;

Mary seen in heaven with Jesus in her...He is The Light (John 1) and this Light (as if arrayed in the light of the sun...play on words? The Son?) that enveloped Mary was Jesus.

The moon in Jewish writing signified darkness/evil (eternal sleep or death). She was stomping out evil and putting away darkness because of her work by bringing forth The Light...Jesus.

She was crowned...as The Mother of The King of Kings who is Jesus, she is The Queen of Queens. A King can only be born of a Queen and a King of Kings can only be born of the Queen of Queens. (Revelation 19:16).


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2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.

Who else's pain would be worth mentioning as much as the only woman to give birth to a child having never had relations with a man? If it's diffictult for a normal woman, how much more difficult would it be for a virgin?


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3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.

Obviously Satan.


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4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child.

The angels he took with him.

Here he stands poised to persecute Mary and Jesus.


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5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

Again, Revelations 19:15...Jesus rules all nations with an iron rod. He is assumpted to Heaven (Book of Acts).


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6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Here, is when Mary fled Jeruselum to Egypt for 3 1/2 years (precisely the time that she had to wait to return to Jeruselum...Herod died just under 4 years after Mary left Jeruselum).


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7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;

Satan's rebellion.


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8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Satan's banishment.


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9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

Satan prepares to persecute Christianity with his demons.


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10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night.
The Gospel is proclaimed. The bretheren accused are The Apostles.


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11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death.

Here, they talk about The Apostles who were martyred for The Gospel (except the writer of the book, John who was spared to care for Mary upon Jesus' death at The Cross).


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12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.

Earth = mankind as we are made of soil
Sea (or water) = spirits as does wind, like when Jesus breathed The Holy Spirit upon The Apostles, when His "Spirit" left His body with His last breath, when it was confirmed that His body was dead when water poured out, when baptism is conferred with "water and spirit", etc...


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13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast down to the earth, he persecuted the woman that brought forth the man child.

Here, Satan persecutes those humans who follow Christ and especially Mary, she who brought forth The One who would undo what Satan did...Satan brougth life through "the woman" Eve, and "the woman" Mary's role is reversed of Eve's in that she brings life to man through Jesus. (Genesis 3).


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14 And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Mary is assumpted into a place where she is protected by Angels(but of course, why would Jesus abandon His mother to the perseuction of Satan having all the power of God at His disposal?). If we would protect our own mothers who are less blessed than Mary, of course we can reasonably expect that Jesus would do the same for her only with a lot more graces at His disposal.


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15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman water as a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream.

Here, Satan hurls vile insults about Mary, trying to belittle her role in God's plan. Again, sending evil spirits into men that focus on belittling Mary and in minimizing her work for mankind.

He hopes that his evil talk and disrespect and dishonor of The Blessed Mother disuaded some of Jesus followers from remaining in full communion to His Church and that Mary's position as being loved by Christians is washed away in lies and deceit.


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16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Here, humanity comes to the rescue of Mary (the earth) and defends her taking on all the attacks by blackhearted men being used by Satan to discredit Jesus' mother.


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17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:

Since Satan couldnt any longer get to Mary or her exalted state in Christinity, he went on to attack those that love her and to whom her womb gave eternal life...those that follow her Son; those that keep God's Commandments.

Those are called Christians and all Christians are called her "seed" or her children because our eternal Life (Who is Jesus) came through her womb.

Mary is therefore, the spiritual mother of Christians.

[emily445455]

I just did a study on Revelation. We studied that the woman is the nation of Israel.

[Cepha]

That's been floated around, but only Mary gave birth to Jesus. Also, Israel consist of two separate nations who are apart. Not only that, Israel is called a barren woman by Scripture and it states that she will "not" bear children until the end of times. Jesus has already come and the end of times is "not" here yet, so it's impossible for it to be Israel. It contradicts Scriptures.

Were you taught the scriptures that state that Israel is barren in that class?

On top of all of that, Israel rejected Jesus...how could the mother of our Lord reject Him?

What are your personal thoughts on this?

Why "can't" the woman who gave birth to Jesus there be the actual woman who gave birth to Jesus...Mary?

What Scriptural support were you given to support that theory?

I'm not asking sarcastically, but with sincere interest.

Thanks.

[jacee]

Have you ever considered that it might be the church itself? There is scripture that says all of creation is waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God.

Maybe this is where the body of Christ gives "birth" to the fullness of the Spirit and brings forth in their lives, Jesus Christ. Then what man calls the rapture, the catching up occurs.

[Cepha]

jacee said:

Have you ever considered that it might be the church itself? There is scripture that says all of creation is waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God.

Maybe this is where the body of Christ gives "birth" to the fullness of the Spirit and brings forth in their lives, Jesus Christ. Then what man calls the rapture, the catching up occurs.

How could The Church give birth to Christ?

Only Mary gave birth to Christ.

Not The Church.

But I'd like to see how you come to that theory.

The woman mentioned in Rev 12's story is consistant with what Mary went through (persecution, fleeing into the wilderness [which to Jews also means desert, Egypt], giving birth to Jesus, protected by angels, etc...). No other entity in Scripture meets all the references in Rev 12.

In order for the woman to be anything/body other than Mary, you'd have to break the woman up into several different women: Israel/the church/adopted Jews/etc...

Tell you what...let's take each verse, verse by verse and examine the chapter in detail.

[Cepha]

Revelation 12
1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;

I love this...a "woman" (just what Jesus called her several times when He spoke as God on earth) is seen in heaven.

Israel cannot be in Heaven. That would include the whole nation and that's impossible since Israel as a nation rejects that Jesus is Lord and this happened"before" Jesus was even born and it still held by Israel today...2,000 years later.

The sun? The "Son"? Light? What does John 1 call Jesus? The Light. Mary having Jesus inside of here would be "arrayed" in this light so powerful, it would be like the sun, no?

Can Israel be arrayed in light when it exists in the darkness of rejecting the Savior?

The moon underneath her feet? Hmmm...let's revisit the first prophecy "ever" in The Holy Bible keeping in mind that to the Jews, the moon represented darkness and the unknown, also evil...

Genesis 3:14-15
And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: and

I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Here, God tells Satan that Jesus would conquer what he just brought about. Israel did not exist nor is mentioned her, but, a "woman" (there's that word again) is mentioned...the "woman" is the mother of the one who would conquer Satan's work.

Israel does not fit that description...remember, Israel facilitated the murder of God's Son, Jesus. Israel condemned Christ to death.

Who was at Jesus' birth and was with Him throughout His life and was at His feet at His death? Only one "woman"...Mary. His blessed mother.

Where was Israel? Yelling "crucify Him!" How could this be His mother? Nothing good can come out of anything bad (according to Jesus). Israel was rotten to the core when it crucified Jesus. Only Mary was good then.

A crown of 12 Stars? The 12 represent The Apostles (not the 12 tribes of Israel). Only The Apostles are mentioned elsewhere in Rev 12 when their martyrdom is spoken of (by the way, "at" the hands of Israel).

And why a crown? Everyone has a crown in heaven. But, what makes her crown special? Jesus is The King of Kings. A King can only be born of a Queen. When God chose her to give birth to His Son, He automatically (by defualt) makes her a queen "before" Mary would go to heaven...remember, she gave birth to Him while she was on earth. Her being seen "in heaven" shows her where John sees her just before his own death. If Jesus is the King, the Mary (His only mother) is a queen.

Israel has only been mentioned as a "kingdom" that is ruled by a King, but never has Israel been referred to as a "queen".

One more note: John was the Apostle to whom Jesus gave His mother to. He was to take care of her. Mary lost her Son for the sacrifice needed for mankind...God replaces her Son with "a" son to take care of her. Since Jesus had no brothers, He had to replace Himself for it wasn't fair to her that she should sacrifice her life for God and He not make sure that she wasn't being taken care of after her mission was completed. If Jesus had brothers, by the very Law that Jesus came to fulfill, He would have to pass Mary's care onto His next eldest brother. Since He had none, He (as He adopted Joseph as His father on earth), adopted Mary to John. I think it's a beautiful reward for both...John gets the mother of The Lord to be a mother to him, Mary gets to also care for the only Apostle that stayed true to Christ until the end.

A very literal visual depiction of Revelation 12:

[jacee]

Cephas

The Bride is the church. She is bringing forth the image of Sonship within. Very plain to those of us who hear this message. lol

[Cepha]

jacee said:

Cephas

The Bride is the church. She is bringing forth the image of Sonship within. Very plain to those of us who hear this message. lol

Bride?

Where is a bride mentioned in Revelations 12?

Sonship? What is Sonship?

Are there any scriptures that support your theory?

Explain it to me as if I'm an 8 year old.

[jacee]

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Sonship is all through the word. And Romans declares that all of creation groans waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God.

Jesus is the Bridegroom is He not? Need scripture...will give....and we are waiting for the marriage supper of the Lamb....need scripture?

[knuckle]

Hi All----------

the sign is an actual astronomical event.It coincided with the Bethlehem star.The event occurred again the day of crucifiction but that time the moon was in eclipse (red) to signify the shed blood.

the heavens are a huge clockwork,and God works out His plan according to the times He sets.

Jesus was born and died according to this time table

as for the interpretation of these of these events ?? But the bible is clear that Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world---the universal clock was set to this before the stars were flung into the heavens.


much love-------------------knuckle

[emily445455]

I can't find my notes on Rev...but you can listen to that sermon if you'd like.

[Cepha]

jacee said:

Sonship is all through the word. And Romans declares that all of creation groans waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God.

OK, but explain this to me as if I'm an 8 year old.
How do you get sonship from Rev 12?

Jesus is the Bridegroom is He not? Need scripture...will give....and we are waiting for the marriage supper of the Lamb....need scripture?

The Church (The Bride of Christ) isn't formed until Acts. The woman in Revelation 12 gives birth to Christ 33 years "before" Jesus forms The Church "after" His Ressurection.

The Supper is the replacement of Christ for the sacrifices made before Him to God.

Did you know that every single animal that The Jews used to sacrifice were worshipped as God's by the Egyptions and Pagans? This symbolic act was used to show them and their own people that their gods were powerless.

Now...is there anything that you rebut directly out of all the references I pointed out in comparing Mary to The Woman in Revelation 12?

[Cepha]

emily445455 said:

I can't find my notes on Rev...but you can listen to that sermon if you'd like.

You're welcome to post the link here if you'd like.

[emily445455]

www.fbcj.com

Left hand side, click where it says "listen to sermons online" or something.

The sermons "Chapters 12, 13, and 14- The ministry of the antichrist" (there's two of them) deal with Rev 12, the woman, and the child.

[Cepha]

Thanks...here's a site for you:

This is by a Protestant who uses The Holy Bible to prove the case:

youtube.com/watch?v=B6yua8r7Cvs

[I.M.Apologetics]

jacee said:

Have you ever considered that it might be the church itself?

The Catholic Church has called the Woman of Revelation both Israel and the Church, and there are many parts in this passage which suggest Mary as well.

John Paul II said that the primary intention or interpretation was to say it is the Church, but he also said that it is Mary.

Scriptures are not limited to just one interepretation. This is something many Evangelicals seem to fail to see.

[Cepha]

imapologetics said:

jacee said:

Have you ever considered that it might be the church itself?

The Catholic Church has called the Woman of Revelation both Israel and the Church, and there are many parts in this passage which suggest Mary as well.

John Paul II said that the primary intention or interpretation was to say it is the Church, but he also said that it is Mary.

Scriptures are not limited to just one interepretation. This is something many Evangelicals seem to fail to see.

Also, revelation isn't mandated "just" to The Church. Laymen can be given Charisms (as I have been told by Church officials as well as by Catholic Spiritualists [Monks, Friars, etc...]).

The fact remains...only Mary meets all those references when one compares what actually happened to her with what is said in Rev 12...only Mary.

The only way that any other explainations could be inserted would be if the "woman" in Rev 12 is chopped up into different entities and is parceled out to meet a particular religious groups "wishes" as to what they want it to mean.

Only Mary gave birth to Jesus.

Only Mary.

Period.

If we read this Chapter like like little chilren without trying to inject any 21st century mumbo jumbo...we'd clearly see that only Mary is Jesus' mother.

The Church could'nt have given birth to Jesus!

Neither could Israel for Isreal persecuted, rejected and condemned Jesus to death.

Not like worldly theologians, but like little children...

[jacee]

1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.


An example of being birthed into the kingdom....we grow up to the image of the Christ. Which means anointed one by the way. Is not His name, is His title and that is upon His body also.

We bring to the birth also.

Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Zion is also the church. And church is again, the body of Jesus Christ.


Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Jesus bringing many sons to glory? How could He do that being a man? This shows that it is a spiritual birth which is genderless, not human male or female, but spirit.

The true church is to bring forth sonship. Or the image of Gods Son, within. Can only be done by a spiritual birth.

So the woman is the church.

[jacee]

Prophetically speaking I mean. Thought I better clarify. Mary did bring forth Jesus with the overshadowing of Holy Spirit upon her. Revelations is a prophetic book. Tells the revelation of Jesus Christ in symbolic form.

I do not pretend to understand it all, but I do understand Sonship.