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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 14, 2008 20:03:03 GMT -5
that is why the OSAS does not work... Just because you have been saved does not mean that you cant change and become a terrible person. Salvation is something that takes a lifetime, its a journey till the end.
Confession is not strange to me, but i believe just tell Jesus what i have done and that i am sorry for it and will try my best not to continue doing, is good enough. IF you want to go to confession or if you just want to have a private confession with Jesus, to me, its each man his own. Whatever works for you. Both are good!
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 7:10:18 GMT -5
I've heard that. But it doesn't add up. Baptism saves. Right?
How many baptized persons do you know that are sinless?
None. Baptism doesn't make one sinless. It saves you from original sin (salvation).
So are you saying that God gives you a special dispensation after you die to say you're sorry again?
Of course, the moment anyone dies they'll believe in God when they see Him, so why wouldn't He offer this to everyone?
And anger is a venial sin (not a mortal sin). I doubt you'd get hell for anger.
However, if you commit a mortal sin (like say, murder), then that's a serious offense.
I just want to be a hunded percent sure that I'm right in understanding you: You believe that if you died in sin, God would give you another chance "just because" He knows you'd be sorry?
God of course. Then I'd go to The Priest to do whatever he'd prescribe to me. Most likely, The Priest would tell me to work to make up with my neighbor.
Luke 5
12And it came to pass, when he was in a certain city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
13And he put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him.
14And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
See that Knucks? See how much we think alike? I answered your question without even seeing it!
True Christianity goes beyond religion and denominations! Amen!
People confess (tell) their sins to their friends. They confess (tell) their sins to a psychiatrist. They confess (tell) their sins to common men. Why not to a man of God?
One first works it out with God by wanting to repent. They don't have to confess their sins to God. God knows their sins. The truly repentant is forgiven by God. They go to The Priest for what? To receive their counsel. In the fellowship of believers, we help each other out depending on our office within The Bod of Christ.
The Priest is set apart from man by the nature of his office. His job is to "pastor" (verb, not noun) the sheep, so he guides the lost sheep. God uses him (as He uses a Pastor [noun, not verb]) to nurture his lost sheep and to help them work out their repayment of sin.
If a person steals, The Priest will tell him to return what he stole or if he can't to make amends in some other manner (for example, give the valued amount of what he stole to charity or to do something to benefit his fellow man).
This isn't trading a work for sin. It would be a work if nothing was stolen. This is "justice"...repayment of the infraction. Otherwise, people could steal, be sorry, and get away with the crime.
Just like Jesus healed the lepor and sent him to a Priest (and separated him from men by telling him to tell no man, "but" to go show himself to a Priest).
The Priest absolves one in Jesus' name (not in the name of The Priest). Jesus gave The Apostles (Priests themselves as the were ordained by Jesus The Priest) the authority to forgive sins.
Does this mean that they themselves forgive the sin? No. It means that what they teach teaches us how to repent. Their words (like a Priest's words today) leads to us making it right with God.
Of course, there are those that would argue that "I don't need no man between me and God" yet go to a church where the are preached to by a..."man". OK. Then I suppose they didn't need the men that brought the Word of God to them either. Or the man who dunked them in water to baptize them.
And so on, and so on, and so on...meaning that for this individual, in Jesus' day, he would've rejected The Apostles according to their measurement of what a man is. But The Apostles weren't merely just men. Neither are the Priests they ordained after them. They are separated "from" men.
This has been done for 2,000 years.
Pax
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 7:12:28 GMT -5
that is why the OSAS does not work... Just because you have been saved does not mean that you cant change and become a terrible person. Salvation is something that takes a lifetime, its a journey till the end. Exactly...we are saved not from all our sins for the rest of our lives, but for all sins up until the point of baptism. After that, we must continue to work out our salvation. If we were OSAS, there'd be no need to work it out nor would there be any need to remain sinless after being saved. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 7:20:04 GMT -5
In short Knucks, when one is truly penitent, they go to a Priest, request to have their confession heard and the Priest consuls the penitent on how to work out his repentance.
If someone has a problem with drugs or sex or with thievery, he'll tell consul them to stay away from those things that lead them to sin. This is something a friend would do anyway. Why go to a Priest? Because God established The Priesthood exactly for that.
Then, The Priest will pray over him and absolve him (again, all he is doing is reassuring the penitant that God has forgiven him in the authority of The Church).
He tells the penitant to pray.
And that's it. It's not so hard.
It's like going to a shrink, only the diploma on The Priest's wall is is being "ordained" as a man of God.
He doesn't have to be perfect or sinless. No Apostle was. I dont' expect you to accept what I am telling you Knucks, but I'm just hoping to take the wierdness out of it.
God bless.
Pax
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Post by smokeymountaingirl on Apr 15, 2008 7:43:00 GMT -5
OSAS is the most flawed concept that ever came out of Protestantism.
There is no way, no how a person can one day say that he is saved simply by repenting once, then believing that Christ died for your sins and you will have eternal life, no matter what.
Protestants contantly claim Bible only, please explain a few questions I have below and how does OSAS relate to these examples in the Bible.
If this was the case, why did St. Paul find it important to write all those letters to the Early Churches if they were already saved?
Why did St. Paul write over and over again about "Christian living"?
Why bother attending services, if you are already saved, why not sleep in on Sunday?
OSAS doesn't make sense at all
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 8:10:36 GMT -5
Not all of them believe that, but some do.
It completely goes against Scripture.
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 15, 2008 8:15:24 GMT -5
I do not understand OSAS, but I know those things you mentioned are all works, and works do not Save. It doesn't matter if you go to church, when you are Saved, you are Saved. My pastor compared it to getting married. The moment you say "I do", you are married. It is very important that we live and do works for God...but it's not necessary for Salvation.
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Post by alfie on Apr 15, 2008 8:30:35 GMT -5
In short Knucks, when one is truly penitent, they go to a Priest, request to have their confession heard and the Priest consuls the penitent on how to work out his repentance. If someone has a problem with drugs or sex or with thievery, he'll tell consul them to stay away from those things that lead them to sin. This is something a friend would do anyway. Why go to a Priest? Because God established The Priesthood exactly for that. Then, The Priest will pray over him and absolve him (again, all he is doing is reassuring the penitant that God has forgiven him in the authority of The Church). He tells the penitant to pray. And that's it. It's not so hard. It's like going to a shrink, only the diploma on The Priest's wall is is being "ordained" as a man of God. He doesn't have to be perfect or sinless. No Apostle was. I dont' expect you to accept what I am telling you Knucks, but I'm just hoping to take the wierdness out of it. God bless. Pax I have a question about confession. When you do go to confession do you really tell the priest all your sins? If not you are a hypocrite. For example maybe you had a really perverted sexual thought like having sex with an animal or perhaps you have an elderly parent that you secretly want to die so that you don't have to be bothered taking care of them and you would like to inherit their money? I'm betting that you would never tell something like that to a priest. Yeah I know you would just say to the priest that you had a bad sexual thought and that you are selfish and that is not true confession. |
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Post by smokeymountaingirl on Apr 15, 2008 9:34:07 GMT -5
Ok, maybe I can see you point about marriage, but what happens when you don't "work" on the marriage.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 15, 2008 10:03:25 GMT -5
I do not understand OSAS, but I know those things you mentioned are all works, and works do not Save. It doesn't matter if you go to church, when you are Saved, you are Saved. My pastor compared it to getting married. The moment you say "I do", you are married. It is very important that we live and do works for God...but it's not necessary for Salvation. Sounds like you understand it very well...what you just said that you believe is OSAS.  |
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Post by redsoxfan on Apr 15, 2008 11:19:45 GMT -5
Back to the original topic of the thread.
I wouldn't call presuming OSAS to be a sin. It doesn't seem to meet the criteria for a sin.
The big one here being knowledge that presumption of salvation being a sin. They don't realize it is a sin and therefore based on that it is not one.
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 15, 2008 15:44:56 GMT -5
smokeymountaingirl...that's the part I don't understand, lol.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 15:48:55 GMT -5
Hey, Baseball Heretic,
I don't know.
What did Jesus say about misleading Christians in His name?
2 Peter 2
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 16:34:08 GMT -5
All those you remember at the time of your confession. If you miss any, you are automatically forgiven for those as well because it wasn't you intention to mislead God and if you are confessing, that speaks of your penitence.
I've told my Priests everything. E-ve-ry-thing. Everything.
Besides, you don't tell the Priest the details of your sins. That's not neccessary. God knows them already. You tell the Priest the general sin.
However, you can go into detail if you are seeking spiritual help for your sins (such as an addiction, or impure thoughts, or attacks by darkness on you when you are striving to be holy, etc..). They are after all trained physchologists.
(It's part of their 10 years of training prior to becomming a Priest.)
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Post by alfie on Apr 21, 2008 22:14:49 GMT -5
Salvation has been reduced from a Doctrine to a Formula. I liken it to Christian Minimalism. Less Bible. Less Clergy. Less Guidance. Less Rules. Less Restrictions. What "more" do they get for their less? More freedom. More choices. More churches (34,000+). More division. More confusion. More misleading. More distance from Christ's teachings. Not all of them, in fact, not most of them...just that small fanatical sect of non-universal Christians that unfortunately get all the attentioin because they are the most vocal. So what part of the salvation message do you feel is the silliest? 1. A person prays to God when they understand that they are a sinner and in need of a Savior. Sometimes during a revival a "sinners prayer" is said but going up to the altar and saying a sinner's prayer will not accomplish anything on its own. A sinner's prayer is only effective if it genuinely represents what a person knows, understands, and believes about their sinfulness and need for salvation. 2. We are all sinners. Romans 3:10 proclaims, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." The Bible makes it clear that we have all sinned. We are all sinners in need of mercy and forgiveness from God (Titus 3:5-7). Because of our sin, we deserve eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46). The sinner's prayer is a plea for grace instead of judgment. It is a request for mercy instead of wrath. 3. What God has done to remedy our lost and sinful condition. God took on flesh and became a human being in the Person of Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14). Jesus taught us the truth about God and lived a perfectly righteous and sinless life (John 8:46; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus then died on the cross in our place, taking the punishment that we deserve (Romans 5:8). Jesus rose from the dead to prove His victory over sin, death, and hell (Colossians 2:15; 1 Corinthians chapter 15). Because of all of this, we can have our sins forgiven and be promised an eternal home in Heaven - if we will just place our faith in Jesus Christ. All we have to do is believe that He died in our place and rose from the dead (Romans 10:9-10). We can be saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone. Ephesians 2:8 declares, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God." 4. Going up to the altar is simply a way of declaring to God that you are relying on Jesus Christ as your Savior. There are no "magical" words that result in salvation. It is only faith in Jesus' death and resurrection that can save us. "God, I know that I am a sinner. I know that I deserve the consequences of my sin. However, I am trusting in Jesus Christ as my Savior. I believe that His death and resurrection provided for my forgiveness. I trust in Jesus and Jesus alone as my personal Lord and Savior. Thank you Lord, for saving me and forgiving me! Amen!" Apparently your heart is just too hardened for you to understand the real meaning of it. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 23, 2008 21:08:53 GMT -5
There's nothing "silly" about Salvation in my opinion, so that's an unanswerable question to me.
Which parts do you think are "silly"?
Amen.
Apparently your heart is just too hardened for you to understand the real meaning of it.
[/quote]
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Post by reinabella on Apr 23, 2008 22:00:47 GMT -5
O.S.A.S. is not Biblical. (once saved, always saved) Simple example that happens everyday: A pedophile homosexual truly accepts Jesus into his heart and is saved. Then, (as Satan always will attack the holy with more fervor), he is attacked with more lust and desire for his old ways than ever. Unfortunately, he falls back into his old ways... Is he still saved? pedophiles and homosexuals are two totally different things. They shouldn't be used exclusively as it's confusing to the "ignorant" meaning, someone who doesn't know. There's no need to make this example so extreme.. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 23, 2008 22:03:41 GMT -5
I think he was trying to say "homosexual pedifile" Meaning he was both.
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Post by reinabella on Apr 23, 2008 22:03:49 GMT -5
Even many Protestants reject Once Saved Always Saved. It simply is a nice idea, which people who are new to Christianity (who have not studied the Bible nor Church history) like to hear... But is it true? No. I always believed that MOST if not ALL protestants believed that once saved always saved doesn't exist. IT's such a thing engraved into our psyche at all times. In fact, when I was younger, I always thought it was a Catholic believe (albeit, ignorantly, I was wrong to think that). IT's def not a protestant belief. Let me rephrase, it wasn't a Pentecostal belief at least.. Not sure about Methodists/Baptists.. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 23, 2008 22:09:02 GMT -5
Is it true that penticostals cant cut their hair or what is that all about? Why cant they wear pants? Is that biblical?
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