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Post by Jimmy B. on Apr 13, 2008 1:47:31 GMT -5
Isn't "assuming" that your Salvation is guaranteed, really a sin? 
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 13, 2008 7:13:46 GMT -5
Probably...
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Post by knuckle on Apr 13, 2008 8:22:19 GMT -5
No,not at all
Php 4:3 And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow laborers, whose names are in the book of life.
not who we think are in the book but who are there
much love-------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Apr 13, 2008 10:04:19 GMT -5
We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.
Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?
Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?
Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.
2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.
Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.
Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.
Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that "if possible" he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and "hope" (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.
Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the "hope" (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.
Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard.
Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the "hope" (not the certainty) of His glory.
1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of "hope" in Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our "hope" or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of "hope" (not of certainty) of salvation.
2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good "hope" through grace.
1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our "hope" (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.
1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our "hope" (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.
1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her "hope" (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.
2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they "may also obtain salvation." This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.
Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.
Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed "hope," the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life.
Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our "hope" (not our certainty).
Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of "hope" (not certainty) until the end.
Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the "hope" (not the certainty) that is set before us.
Heb. 6:19 - we have a "hope" that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.
Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better "hope" (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our "hope" without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things "hoped" for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).
Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.
James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.
1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living "hope" through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
1 Peter 1:13 - set your "hope" (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and "hope" are in God.
1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?
1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the "hope" that is in you.
1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus "hopes" in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 13, 2008 10:07:56 GMT -5
O.S.A.S. is not Biblical.
(once saved, always saved)
Simple example that happens everyday:
A pedophile homosexual truly accepts Jesus into his heart and is saved.
Then, (as Satan always will attack the holy with more fervor), he is attacked with more lust and desire for his old ways than ever.
Unfortunately, he falls back into his old ways...
Is he still saved?
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Post by Cepha on Apr 13, 2008 10:13:29 GMT -5
No,not at all Php 4:3 And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow laborers, whose names are in the book of life. not who we think are in the book but who are there much love-------------knuckle Good morning Knucks. To me, that looks like he is talking about us being a Christian, but not automatically saved. Even Christians are judged after being saved in Revelation 2/3. How do you see it?  |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 13, 2008 12:04:36 GMT -5
Once saved always saved is a joke/lie!
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Post by knuckle on Apr 13, 2008 13:33:16 GMT -5
We are saved by grace through faith we are judged by works.
2 Tim 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Tit 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Cor 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Cor 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1 Cor 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
We use terms such as Once saved,always saved----- not scripture----but this is---Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
as for Christians being judged lets go to an authority near and dear to our heart
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
and Paul
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
much love-------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Apr 13, 2008 13:35:44 GMT -5
But faith without works is dead.
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Post by knuckle on Apr 13, 2008 13:52:36 GMT -5
Very true,so what does that say about those who have no works?
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Post by Cepha on Apr 13, 2008 14:11:15 GMT -5
Very true,so what does that say about those who have no works? No works, no salvation. |
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Post by knuckle on Apr 13, 2008 14:17:59 GMT -5
No works= no faith
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 13, 2008 14:24:21 GMT -5
No works=no faith=no salvation!  |
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 13, 2008 15:10:51 GMT -5
Even many Protestants reject Once Saved Always Saved.
It simply is a nice idea, which people who are new to Christianity (who have not studied the Bible nor Church history) like to hear...
But is it true?
No.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 13, 2008 15:20:02 GMT -5
Salvation has been reduced from a Doctrine to a Formula.
I liken it to Christian Minimalism.
Less Bible.
Less Clergy.
Less Guidance.
Less Rules.
Less Restrictions.
What "more" do they get for their less?
More freedom.
More choices.
More churches (34,000+).
More division.
More confusion.
More misleading.
More distance from Christ's teachings.
Not all of them, in fact, not most of them...just that small fanatical sect of non-universal Christians that unfortunately get all the attentioin because they are the most vocal.
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Post by knuckle on Apr 13, 2008 20:21:47 GMT -5
salvation to most protestants is so much more than repeating the sinners prayer
I personally believe that if one truly repents and makes Jesus Lord of their life than yes,they have blessed assurance
Now that said,many will answer an alter call and do nothing but play lip service,they are not repentant in their heart and soon go back to their life of sin----this is not and never was saved
if you meet someone who is truly saved you will know it and there is no undoing this---this is once saved always saved
much love------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Apr 13, 2008 20:31:11 GMT -5
I would say that to some Protestants, Salvation is the "only" thing.
Is that it? Faith alone? The Bible is full of those who did that and still failed to earn heaven because that's all they did. All they did was believe.
Making Him Lord of their life doesn't fulfill His requisites of works.
I'm not trying to be confrontational here...please don't think that. I'm just trying to get a fuller understanding of what you believe and why you believe it.
I've never met a man that hasn't become a Christian and all of a sudden stopped sinning. Never. Once a sinner, always a sinner. Unless you die the moment you are saved, you die a sinner. Jesus died for our sins, yes. But that mercy is conditional.
Faith, works, grace.
So do you believe that a person could be saved, sin, then continue to be saved? That they never lose their salvation? Baptism is enough to clear us of original sin, but what about sins performed after we sin?
Again...the pedophile who truly converts, but then falls back into sin, is he still saved just because he accepted Jesus as His saviour?
That is a profession of faith.
Question:
After you were saved, did you ever sin again?
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Post by knuckle on Apr 14, 2008 4:31:10 GMT -5
Hi Cepha------------
I was speaking to willfully sinning and the change that takes place.
The doctrine of grace is not a get out of jail free card.
There was a time in my life when I was a drunkard,I did drugs,I was a whore monger ,hateful,spiteful,cruel--I hated God myself and everyone else That me was crucified with Jesus,that me is dead and good riddance--- Christ raised me up a new man
Am I perfect and sinless?No indeed not this flesh is a hard thing to kill but today when I sin I am convicted by it,I am on my knees getting right with God-- that is Grace that is how I know I am saved and if I were to drop dead while typing this I know without a shadow of a doubt that Christ is coming back for me My name is in the book of life
much love-------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Apr 14, 2008 10:24:16 GMT -5
All sinning is willfull to me.
So is the saved pedophile who rapes children again guarenteed heaven?
Same here (except without the drugs and alcohol...I was blessed to never have been attracted to that...my weakness was women). God handed me a spiritual beatdown and rebuilt me like Steve Austin, The Six Million Dollar Man.
You have no idea how Catholic you sound. We get criticized for believing what you just said. Of course, I'm in 100% accordance with you.
Except the part of having 100% assurance that I'm guaranteed heaven. I can't decide for God. As the hundred or so scriptures I posted said...we "hope" for salvation.
But everything else, the continual conversion part, I'm with you on that.
A person just doesn't accept Jesus and POOF! Instant change. It starts like that, but it grows. It is a continual conversion...one converts eternally until they are made perfect in Heaven.
Do you believe that a an unrepentant sinner can get into heaven?
For example, if you sinned and before you got a chance to repent, you got hit by a car and died, where would you go?
To heaven or hell?
Now the "that's not fair, I wasn't given a chance" argument that's often thrown at me when I ask this is easily countered by Christ's own words with the gnashing of the teeth passage, but some feel like God owes them salvation once they proclaim Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour, when Jesus clearly points out that salvation is conditional upon your works.
Even Demons and Satan believe that Jesus is Lord, but they're not saved.
;D
Pax
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Post by knuckle on Apr 14, 2008 17:20:30 GMT -5
So is the saved pedophile who rapes children again guarenteed heaven?
if the pedophile is saved,he won't be out raping kids
If I were to die lets say while arguing with my neighbor---bam knuckle has a coronary--yes I am covered even though anger is a sin because I haven't been convicted yet--God knows that the moment He says 'hold on knuckle your in the wrong here" I will repent asking both God and my neighbor to forgive me
that reminds me----lets say that it was Cepha arguing with his neighbor would you ask forgiveness from God directly or would you have to go see a priest?Do you feel compelled to make it right with your neighbor?do you think God will forgive you if you don't at least try to?Will the priest direct you to if you haven't yet?
This whole going to confession thing is really strange to me.
much love------------knuckle
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