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Post by Cepha on Jan 26, 2009 9:28:57 GMT -5
Dude, that was a bit snappy don't you think?  No, no, no! LOL! Not at all! I didn't mean for it to come out like that. I was just trying to explain it the way I think he himself sees it! So please, don't take it as my trying to be combative towards him. Hear that WMan? It wasn't meant to be negative.  |
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Post by Cepha on Jan 26, 2009 9:35:21 GMT -5
Almost cepha, although I do go to a denominational church I am not a part of that denomination. Therefore the denomination itself holds no authority over me either. I do however submit myself to the Pastor of my church, but only to an extent. If he were to get out of line with God's word I would have to keep myself inline with what God has said, and not submit to the pastors word. Ok. I didn't mean to talk in absolutes, but in a general sense. May I? Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."Paul was speaking about "religious" leaders. |
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Post by watchman on Jan 26, 2009 11:37:33 GMT -5
Dude, that was a bit snappy don't you think? No, no, no! LOL! Not at all! I didn't mean for it to come out like that. I was just trying to explain it the way I think he himself sees it! So please, don't take it as my trying to be combative towards him. Hear that WMan? It wasn't meant to be negative. I did not take it as snappy |
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Post by watchman on Jan 26, 2009 11:39:12 GMT -5
Ok. I didn't mean to talk in absolutes, but in a general sense. May I? Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."Paul was speaking about "religious" leaders. This passage is better than the ones teresa gave, but still I believe this refers more to the pastor and maybe elders or personal disciplers than the ''church''. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jan 26, 2009 18:10:58 GMT -5
But what is the difference? And if we are to submit only to the pastor or elder, how would you choose which one? Mormons have "elders". Just about anyone could find a Seminary to attend and become "ordained" and just about anyone could simple call themselves a pastor or an elder. How do you know who to submit to?
How would you know which church to choose? What if there were 2 churches in the same distance from your house but the pastors were contradicting each other. What if you had children and one pastor said you should baptize them, and one pastor said don't baptize them? What if one pastor believed in the "Real Presence" of Jesus in the Eucharist, but the other one didn't? What if one pastor said your wife should cover her head in the church and the other one said no?
What if you found a pastor that you agreed with 99% but then he said something (to which you said you should submit) that you totally disagreed with but which could conceivably be Scriptural, then do you still submit to him or do you go with your own personal view?
And what exactly is the role of a pastor if one believes in Sola Scriptura? What exactly does "Sola Scriptura" mean to you?
Before I was Catholic, I believed in "Sola Scriptura" but only because I was taught that I should believe it. I sort of took it for granted that it was possible to not believe in Sola Scriptura.
When you read the Bible, how do you know how to interpret it? Has there ever been a time when you interpreted a verse in a certain way, but then later gained more insight and changed your mind about your interpretation? Do you have a system for ranking the importance of beliefs? Do you have a hierarchy of doctrine?
I hope I'm not interrogating you too much! I'm honestly really curious because I personally never had a good answer for those questions and I'm ashamed to say that my lack of a good answer for those kinds of questions did not help me present a very good witness to my non-Christian friends and esp. my Muslims friends. Maybe you have better answers than I did?
peace
teresa
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Post by watchman on Jan 26, 2009 19:31:59 GMT -5
I would submit myself to a pastor that I knew loved God and wanted to do whats right and believe the truth, and I knew wanted what was best for myself and my family regardless if we had doctrinal differences or not. I believe that every belief or doctrine should be held up to scripture if it does not line up ans especially if it opposes scripture it should be thrown out. I have changed my mind about certain things after careful study of the scriptures sure. The pastor I am submitted to right now do not see eye to eye perfectly on every single doctrine, but he is a good man he loves God and me, and I love him.
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Post by Cepha on Jan 27, 2009 14:04:09 GMT -5
No, no, no! LOL! Not at all! I didn't mean for it to come out like that. I was just trying to explain it the way I think he himself sees it! So please, don't take it as my trying to be combative towards him. Hear that WMan? It wasn't meant to be negative. I did not take it as snappy Thanks...don't listen to that "troublemaker" Teresa! She's not as meek as I am.  |
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Post by Cepha on Jan 27, 2009 14:08:04 GMT -5
Ok. I didn't mean to talk in absolutes, but in a general sense. May I? Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."Paul was speaking about "religious" leaders. This passage is better than the ones teresa gave, but still I believe this refers more to the pastor and maybe elders or personal disciplers than the ''church''. Ok...define "church" with regards to the biblical definitions (plural, because there are several different instances where the word church is mentioned). I guess that would be a good place for us to exchange our views...from a common understanding of the various meanings of the word church and it's usage in the NT. |
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Post by Cepha on Jan 27, 2009 14:54:33 GMT -5
Ok. I didn't mean to talk in absolutes, but in a general sense. May I? Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."Paul was speaking about "religious" leaders. This passage is better than the ones teresa gave, but still I believe this refers more to the pastor and maybe elders or personal disciplers than the ''church''. Also, what exactly does a pastor or elder do? What's their job? Who employs them? |
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Post by teresahrc on Jan 28, 2009 14:12:50 GMT -5
"Thanks...don't listen to that "troublemaker" Teresa! She's not as meek as I am. " HA haha ! What in the world does "snappy" mean anyway? My new favorite word is "Craxy". It was a typo by my bro-in law, but it really makes sense to me somehow. Anyway, what were we talking about? Oh yeah, I was going to ask Watchman, I know that you are very "learned" and a godly person. You have obviously read the Bible a lot and studied it quite thoroughly. So for you, it would not be so hard to see if a pastor was preaching something very heretical. I'm sure if a pastor suggested that you do a certain thing that you knew wasn't biblical, you wouldn't do it. But what about Christians who don't know the Bible so well. Many Christians (esp. in other Countries or centuries ago) have been illiterate. How in the world would they know if the pastor was teaching the truth or not? Try to put yourself in the position of Biblically illiterate person. How would they know what church to go to or what pastor to submit to? There are at least 22,000 different types of churches, some are mostly "Biblical" but some are outright teaching lies. What standard do you use in determining which church to attend? Are there certain "non-negotiable" doctrines upon which you would not compromise, but others that maybe you could allow someone else's point of view? How do you decide which doctrines are more important? Please answer in detail. Each essay is worth 20 points, and if you get a "B" or higher, you don't have to take the final. |
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Post by Cepha on Jan 29, 2009 10:25:44 GMT -5
"Thanks...don't listen to that "troublemaker" Teresa! She's not as meek as I am. " HA haha ! What in the world does "snappy" mean anyway? My new favorite word is "Craxy". It was a typo by my bro-in law, but it really makes sense to me somehow. LOL! |
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Post by kathleenelsie on Feb 6, 2009 16:40:20 GMT -5
Teresa, are you saying Catholics do believe in a physical resurrection, and further more have to because the catechism says there will be one? That is strange because I know for one cepha does not6 believe in it. Take it from a very Traditional Old woman we believe in a physical resurrection. This is why cremation with the spreading of ashes is not allowed in the church. The body is to be buried or placed in consecrated ground for the day we are called up. You can now be cremated but you may not keep the ashes on a shelf and they must be placed the same as anyother body. The Holy Bible tells us so and so does traditional teachings. The CCC should be taught to each and every Catholic. But, many of us have found the lack of teaching in the classes the children attend to be frightening. Infact some are going as far as to teach the CCC at home when we find the formal classes filled more with crayons and games. The lack of teaching what the Church actually believes has led to many problems in our modern society. |
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Post by kathleenelsie on Feb 6, 2009 17:15:15 GMT -5
Watchman, do you realize that you changed the Commandments also? You shortened them and summarized them. Here is the English Translation of the 10 Commandments: The Ten Commandments 1Then God spoke all these words, saying, 2"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3"You shall have no other gods before Me.
4"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6but showing loving-kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. What is quoted by people that list the protestant form as # 1 & 2 is one sentence not two. So their first & second are actually one commandment. So the said images are not to be adored or worshiped. All other images and statues are ok. Many Protestants think we Catholics worship idols and other things but we don't we use them as reminders not idols.
This leaves your number three as our number two. See be;ow
7"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
Then this becomes our number three. 8"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9"Six days you shall labor and do all your work.
10but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. Now number four 12"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you. Now number five 13"You shall not murder. Now number six 14"You shall not commit adultery. Now number seven 15"You shall not steal. Now number eight 16"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Now number nine 17"You shall not covet your neighbor's house;" Now number tenyou shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor" (NASB)[/quote] Mostly the translations are because of punctuation. The original Latin and Hebrew use punctuation in a differing manor. Also the original scripts were not divided into chapters and verses. PAX |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Feb 6, 2009 18:29:42 GMT -5
Teresa, are you saying Catholics do believe in a physical resurrection, and further more have to because the catechism says there will be one? That is strange because I know for one cepha does not6 believe in it. Take it from a very Traditional Old woman we believe in a physical resurrection. This is why cremation with the spreading of ashes is not allowed in the church. The body is to be buried or placed in consecrated ground for the day we are called up. You can now be cremated but you may not keep the ashes on a shelf and they must be placed the same as anyother body. The Holy Bible tells us so and so does traditional teachings. The CCC should be taught to each and every Catholic. But, many of us have found the lack of teaching in the classes the children attend to be frightening. Infact some are going as far as to teach the CCC at home when we find the formal classes filled more with crayons and games. The lack of teaching what the Church actually believes has led to many problems in our modern society. Hey i just learned something! I never knew that! Yet i also have never attended a catholic funeral where the person was cremated, so that makes sence! |
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Post by watchman on Feb 6, 2009 21:24:01 GMT -5
"Thanks...don't listen to that "troublemaker" Teresa! She's not as meek as I am. " HA haha ! What in the world does "snappy" mean anyway? My new favorite word is "Craxy". It was a typo by my bro-in law, but it really makes sense to me somehow. Anyway, what were we talking about? Oh yeah, I was going to ask Watchman, I know that you are very "learned" and a godly person. You have obviously read the Bible a lot and studied it quite thoroughly. So for you, it would not be so hard to see if a pastor was preaching something very heretical. I'm sure if a pastor suggested that you do a certain thing that you knew wasn't biblical, you wouldn't do it. But what about Christians who don't know the Bible so well. Many Christians (esp. in other Countries or centuries ago) have been illiterate. How in the world would they know if the pastor was teaching the truth or not? Try to put yourself in the position of Biblically illiterate person. How would they know what church to go to or what pastor to submit to? There are at least 22,000 different types of churches, some are mostly "Biblical" but some are outright teaching lies. What standard do you use in determining which church to attend? Are there certain "non-negotiable" doctrines upon which you would not compromise, but others that maybe you could allow someone else's point of view? How do you decide which doctrines are more important? Please answer in detail. Each essay is worth 20 points, and if you get a "B" or higher, you don't have to take the final. The deity of Christ, the belief that Jesus is Messiah, The belief in His death for our sins, and in His resurrection. Those are the most essential doctrines of Christianity. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Feb 6, 2009 21:35:02 GMT -5
I agree with what you say watchman, but i also think there is more to it. It is a way of life, you have to live Gods way until death,.
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Post by watchman on Feb 6, 2009 21:37:35 GMT -5
I agree with what you say watchman, but i also think there is more to it. It is a way of life, you have to live Gods way until death,. I agree christianity is a way of life but in context to the question, what is the doctrine that someone illiterate and cannot study the Bible should know, those would be the ones essential for their salvation. I believe after this the Holy Spirit will give them discernment and correction from there. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 6, 2009 22:52:21 GMT -5
The deity of Christ, the belief that Jesus is Messiah, The belief in His death for our sins, and in His resurrection. Those are the most essential doctrines of Christianity. Not "dis"agreeing with you, but I'd say this is the sum of all Christianity...that we love God first with all our minds our hearts and our souls. Everything else will fall in line after that. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 7, 2009 13:23:07 GMT -5
You have to know who God is before you can love Him.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 7, 2009 13:51:02 GMT -5
You have to know who God is before you can love Him. When God reveals Himself to you, then you'll know Him. God The Father comes before God The Son. It is God The Father that brings us to Jesus Christ. First God, then Jesus. |
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