my vision of Our Lady

[Cepha]

Apr 30, 2009 15:31:57 GMT -5 alfie said:

I'll never believe it was from God.

You would reject good fruits?

The Bible warns against signs and wonders. I have read reports of Jesus appearing before an individual Moslem but not 150,000 people. That should be a wake up call right there. It's just crazy.

Then you'll probably also reject Jesus when He returns (if He returns in your lifetime) because you'll automatically assume that it's Satan trying to fool you.

Why would that be a wake up call?
Does the number of witnesses make a difference?
Jesus was witnessed by over a thousand disciples when He returned Himself. Not only to one disciple.

And, the wake up call that Jesus told us to judge by is the fruits of the work. So, if the fruits are good, then the work must be good. If 150,000 Muslims were converted to Christianity, that is a good work. Satan wouldn't convert Muslims to Christ.

Jesus said that a house cannot work against itself. This was also another proof He told us so that we could be alert as to which spirits were true and which were false.

The evidence is there. We were told to be prudent, not superstitious. There will be no excuse for those that ignore obviously true signs and wonders just because they don't conform to their personal beliefs.

[Cepha]

Apr 30, 2009 21:24:39 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

I'll never believe it was from God. The Bible warns against signs and wonders. I have read reports of Jesus appearing before an individual Moslem but not 150,000 people. That should be a wake up call right there. It's just crazy.

The Bible doen't "warn against signs and wonders" it warns against false "signs and wonder". It also says to test everything and hold on to the good.

Exactly!

What happens when Jesus returns?

Are we supposed to automatically get scared and ignore it because it "could be" Satan?

[Cepha]

Apr 30, 2009 22:44:12 GMT -5 alfie said:

That church in Egypt was a Coptic Orthodox church not a Catholic church.

Orthodox Christians "are" Catholic Christians.
They are members of The Universal Christian (Catholic) Church.
Apostolically Succeeded with full credentials.

Mary appeared on and off during a period of three years. However, Egyptians stopped coming to watch her because it became old hat/boring. Looks like she overdid her stay and eventually just faded away. I hardly think that would have happened if it really was Mary especially if there were that many converts to Christianity like Cepha claims. Also, foreigners were being charged money (so much for spirituality) to see her. One thing that Mary promised Egypt was eternal peace which ain't gonna happen until Jesus returns.

"Looks like"?
"Hardly"?
"if"?

Not very strong words to try to prove a point.

Let's look at what actually happened...

Oh, and my mistake, she didn't appear to 150,000...she appeared to "millions" of people. www.zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun2.htm



Is there war in Egypt now?
It once was at war with Israel at that time, right?
But today, it's at peace with Israel.
Did The Blessed Mother's words come true?
If they are truth, then can they be from Satan?

[Cepha]

Apr 30, 2009 22:44:12 GMT -5 alfie said:

Also, foreigners were being charged money (so much for spirituality) to see her. One thing that Mary promised Egypt was eternal peace which ain't gonna happen until Jesus returns.

I've seen these televangelists on tv talking about sowing seeds and getting money back on your investments and all that...

Do I blame the people who believe this?
No, I blame the charlaton who's deceiving them.

And I would never discount or discredit the faith of those who think that they are doing the right thing by following these guys.

Good people can be fooled by opportunists.

I believe that people who've had strong faith in being healed in a church where the Pastor/Priest was proven to be false and corrupt were healed not by the falseness of the Pastor/Priest, but by their own faith in God, by their own relationship with God directly even if they were ministered to by a false man of God.

God wouldn't (in my opinion) allow a false minister to come in between his devout and Him.

Tourism charges don't discount the miracle.
They have nothing to do with the miracle.

[Cepha]

Apr 30, 2009 23:00:38 GMT -5 alfie said:

It's hard to believe they were true Christians if they were killing each other.

It's happening right now in Northern Ireland.

[teresahrc]

Who was charging them money? The Christians or the Egyptian government?


Also, just so you know alfie, Jesus told us "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. So if Mary really did appear and promise peace through her son, she obviously wasn't talking about "world peace".
However, if everyone in a family, or a clan or even a whole country completely turned to the Lord then their would be peace at least within that group.
If today, the whole entire world turned to God then there would be world peace. We know that isn't going to happen because scripture says it isn't. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't work and pray for peace. Jesus died for the whole world even though He knew many would reject Him.

peace
teresa

[Cepha]

May 1, 2009 9:54:44 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

So if Mary really did appear and promise peace through her son, she obviously wasn't talking about "world peace".

Well Teresa, what does history teach us?

That Egypt was at war with Israel before and is now (after the apparition) at peace with Israel.

This makes her prophecy true, right?



Egypt Israeli Peace Treaty: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Egypt_Peace_Treaty

[teresahrc]

Tourism charges don't discount the miracle.
They have nothing to do with the miracle.

Yeah that is so true. Just like Simon(the sorcerer) in the Bible. Just because he tried to buy the Holy Spirit doesn't mean that we shouldn't seek the Holy Spirit!

And if someone tries to "sell" a miracle or things like that, that is their own personal issue. They will have to give account to God.

Just as a side note, isn't the Bible sold all the time at Christian bookstores etc. Why don't people complain about that? Personally, I don't have a problem with that because I know that they have to pay the printers, pay for paper and ink etc.

peace

[Cepha]

May 1, 2009 9:59:38 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

Tourism charges don't discount the miracle.
They have nothing to do with the miracle.

Yeah that is so true. Just like Simon(the sorcerer) in the Bible. Just because he tried to buy the Holy Spirit doesn't mean that we shouldn't seek the Holy Spirit!

And if someone tries to "sell" a miracle or things like that, that is their own personal issue. They will have to give account to God.

Just as a side note, isn't the Bible sold all the time at Christian bookstores etc. Why don't people complain about that? Personally, I don't have a problem with that because I know that they have to pay the printers, pay for paper and ink etc.

peace

Excellent example with Simon The Sorcerer and our own pursuit of The Holy Spirit.

Oooo!

And slam dunk with the Holy Bible being sold!

[Cepha]

Kind of makes one wonder about all the church sponsored trips to The Holy Land...or, even The Holy Land attraction in Orlando Florida, right?

Don't get me wrong, I dont' see anything wrong with it.
In fact, I think it's good that people get to see the events of The Holy Bible being told live.

All this is is statues come to life.
Where The Catholic Church used statues and paintings and Christian artwork to tell the story of The Bible to those who couldn't read, The Evangelicals have done a wonderful job of bringing The Bible to life.

Now, before the "well, we dont' bow down to statues and pray to them" rhetoric begins, mark my words...there are people who are moved to tears in the depictions of the stories being played out by actors. To think that they arent' affected by the visual scourging of Christ would be ignorant. They too (Evangelicals) feel pain at the images they see and they feel hope and they feel all kinds of feelings that are portrayed by the actors.

And they too pray while watching the play and praise God.

[teresahrc]

All this is is statues come to life.
Where The Catholic Church used statues and paintings and Christian artwork to tell the story of The Bible to those who couldn't read, The Evangelicals have done a wonderful job of bringing The Bible to life.

Now, before the "well, we dont' bow down to statues and pray to them" rhetoric begins, mark my words...there are people who are moved to tears in the depictions of the stories being played out by actors. To think that they arent' affected by the visual scourging of Christ would be ignorant. They too (Evangelicals) feel pain at the images they see and they feel hope and they feel all kinds of feelings that are portrayed by the actors.

And they too pray while watching the play and praise God.

Whoa, that is so true, I never thought about that.

[Cepha]

May 1, 2009 10:37:51 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

All this is is statues come to life.
Where The Catholic Church used statues and paintings and Christian artwork to tell the story of The Bible to those who couldn't read, The Evangelicals have done a wonderful job of bringing The Bible to life.

Now, before the "well, we dont' bow down to statues and pray to them" rhetoric begins, mark my words...there are people who are moved to tears in the depictions of the stories being played out by actors. To think that they arent' affected by the visual scourging of Christ would be ignorant. They too (Evangelicals) feel pain at the images they see and they feel hope and they feel all kinds of feelings that are portrayed by the actors.

And they too pray while watching the play and praise God.

Whoa, that is so true, I never thought about that.

;D

[alfie]

May 1, 2009 8:42:07 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Apr 30, 2009 15:31:57 GMT -5 alfie said:

I'll never believe it was from God.

You would reject good fruits?

The Bible warns against signs and wonders. I have read reports of Jesus appearing before an individual Moslem but not 150,000 people. That should be a wake up call right there. It's just crazy.

Then you'll probably also reject Jesus when He returns (if He returns in your lifetime) because you'll automatically assume that it's Satan trying to fool you.

Nope! The Bible says we will be caught up in the air to meet him when He returns.

Why would that be a wake up call?
Does the number of witnesses make a difference?
Jesus was witnessed by over a thousand disciples when He returned Himself. Not only to one disciple.

That was to prove He had risen from the dead and is predicted in the Old Testament.


And, the wake up call that Jesus told us to judge by is the fruits of the work. So, if the fruits are good, then the work must be good. If 150,000 Muslims were converted to Christianity, that is a good work. Satan wouldn't convert Muslims to Christ.

So they converted. Big deal! that doesn't prove they are saved.


Jesus said that a house cannot work against itself. This was also another proof He told us so that we could be alert as to which spirits were true and which were false.

Marian appariations are demonic. The appariation in Egypt promised Egypt eternal peace. Egypt is going to attack Israel in the near future probably when Israel launches a nuclear bomb at Iran which could occur in the next several weeks. The anti-Christ will also promise peace in the world.

The evidence is there. We were told to be prudent, not superstitious. There will be no excuse for those that ignore obviously true signs and wonders just because they don't conform to their personal beliefs.

Why doesn't Jesus appear before a couple of million Egyptians?

[alfie]

May 1, 2009 9:03:18 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Apr 30, 2009 21:24:39 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

The Bible doen't "warn against signs and wonders" it warns against false "signs and wonder". It also says to test everything and hold on to the good.

Exactly!

What happens when Jesus returns?

Are we supposed to automatically get scared and ignore it because it "could be" Satan?

You know what else are false signs? All of these so called weeping statues of Mary and the Shroud of Turin.

[alfie]

May 1, 2009 10:56:30 GMT -5 Cepha said:

May 1, 2009 10:37:51 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

Whoa, that is so true, I never thought about that.

;D

You know what the Church should have been doing besides spending all of its money on ritzy churchs? It should have been making copies of the Bible to give to the common people.

[alfie]

May 1, 2009 9:23:55 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Apr 30, 2009 22:44:12 GMT -5 alfie said:

That church in Egypt was a Coptic Orthodox church not a Catholic church.

Orthodox Christians "are" Catholic Christians.
They are members of The Universal Christian (Catholic) Church.
Apostolically Succeeded with full credentials.

Mary appeared on and off during a period of three years. However, Egyptians stopped coming to watch her because it became old hat/boring. Looks like she overdid her stay and eventually just faded away. I hardly think that would have happened if it really was Mary especially if there were that many converts to Christianity like Cepha claims. Also, foreigners were being charged money (so much for spirituality) to see her. One thing that Mary promised Egypt was eternal peace which ain't gonna happen until Jesus returns.

"Looks like"?
"Hardly"?
"if"?

Not very strong words to try to prove a point.

Let's look at what actually happened...

Oh, and my mistake, she didn't appear to 150,000...she appeared to "millions" of people. www.zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun2.htm



Is there war in Egypt now?
It once was at war with Israel at that time, right?
But today, it's at peace with Israel.
Did The Blessed Mother's words come true?
If they are truth, then can they be from Satan?

I only know that in Islam the Moslems hold a very high view of Mary just like Catholics do. And this love of Mary between the two religions is going to usher in a one world religion.

[alfie]

May 1, 2009 9:29:39 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Apr 30, 2009 23:00:38 GMT -5 alfie said:

It's hard to believe they were true Christians if they were killing each other.

It's happening right now in Northern Ireland.

What? True Christians are killing each other in Northern Ireland?Give me a break. These people are going to Hell. If the Catholics were truly Christian they would not be so concerned with their human rights. The same can be said about the Protestants.

[alfie]

May 1, 2009 10:37:51 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

All this is is statues come to life.
Where The Catholic Church used statues and paintings and Christian artwork to tell the story of The Bible to those who couldn't read, The Evangelicals have done a wonderful job of bringing The Bible to life.

Now, before the "well, we dont' bow down to statues and pray to them" rhetoric begins, mark my words...there are people who are moved to tears in the depictions of the stories being played out by actors. To think that they arent' affected by the visual scourging of Christ would be ignorant. They too (Evangelicals) feel pain at the images they see and they feel hope and they feel all kinds of feelings that are portrayed by the actors.

And they too pray while watching the play and praise God.

Whoa, that is so true, I never thought about that.

I doubt if the Church wanted the common folk to be able to read because that would endanger the power structure of the church if they could read the Bible for themselves.

[alfie]

May 1, 2009 9:54:44 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

Who was charging them money? The Christians or the Egyptian government?


Also, just so you know alfie, Jesus told us "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. So if Mary really did appear and promise peace through her son, she obviously wasn't talking about "world peace".
However, if everyone in a family, or a clan or even a whole country completely turned to the Lord then their would be peace at least within that group.
If today, the whole entire world turned to God then there would be world peace. We know that isn't going to happen because scripture says it isn't. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't work and pray for peace. Jesus died for the whole world even though He knew many would reject Him.

peace
teresa

The church was charging tourists an entrance fee.

The more you Catholics and Orthodox focus on Mary the more it takes away from Jesus. Just like your vision does.

[Ramon]

May 2, 2009 11:43:54 GMT -5 alfie said:

The more you Catholics and Orthodox focus on Mary the more it takes away from Jesus. Just like your vision does.

That is where you are mistaken. We Orthodox do not focus on Mary more than Christ. That is your prejudice, not actual fact. It is clear that you know nothing about the Holy Eastern Orthodox Church. Thereby, I will suggest you refrain from talking about the Orthodox Church, until you gain knowledge of it. We honor the Theotokos above all Saints and Holy Angels, but the Church since the 1st Century as always maintain that worship is due to God alone.

Also, true visions of the Theotokos does not take way from Christ. It will rather lead you to Christ and His Church, as some Marian Apparition did.

In IC.XC,
Ramon

P.S, Also is impossible to focus on Mary, the Theotokos, more than Christ, for everything about the Theotokos is connected to Christ. The Virgin Mary will be nothing without Christ.