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Post by teresahrc on May 2, 2009 12:23:31 GMT -5
LOL! If that is your view, you should not be on this website! You should be sitting somewhere praying all day never talking to anyone else, never eating, never sleeping because all those things might take away from Jesus.
We don't "focus on Mary" at all. Actually, if you go to Catholic Mass, you usually only hear Mary's name ONE time.
It doesn't "take away from Jesus" to talk about Mary. It doesn't take away from Jesus when I talk about my mother, or when I had a birthday party for her a couple weeks ago! I wasn't worshiping my mom to have a birthday party for her, I did it to honor her.
That's why Catholics honor Mary too. We have one "natural" mother and one "spiritual" mother.
And, just so you know, Catholics are not in any way required to believe any vision or apparition. They are considered "private revelation". Though if one is obviously false, the Church will warn people not to believe it.
peace
teresa
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Post by teresahrc on May 2, 2009 12:27:58 GMT -5
Maybe. I don't know much about "weeping statues" but I do know that the Church has allowed scientist to thoroughly study the Shroud. That should show you that the Church doesn't want to deceive people by "false signs". And they have never made an official declaration that the shroud is authentic.
But so far, the people that think the shroud is authentic have a greater devotion and belief in the resurrected Lord. That's pretty good fruit if you ask me.
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Post by teresahrc on May 2, 2009 12:39:30 GMT -5
Oy vey.
First of all, there were no printing presses for the first 1400 or more years of Christianity!!!! I don't think anyone would have even thought that what we have today could be possible--people have all kinds of books, even multiple Bibles--which is great, but that wasn't possible for most of the History of the Church.
Second, the "power structure" of the Church is not about "power" but service. Who washed people's feet this past Maundy Thursday at my Church? The priests and deacons. And they have authority (not "power") given by God. It's in the Bible.
Third, it was not until the past couple of hundred years that the general pop. became as literate as 21st century Americans are. It took a long time for people to be literate because it took a long time for the printing press to be invented so that everyone could have books. Even today in many 3rd world countries, many people still can't read (or afford books if they could). So does that mean that this people can't ever know God because they can't read the Bible? No. Because faith doesn't come through "reading" it comes from "hearing" the word of God.
Also, just take a look at the fruit of "everyone with their own Bible, interpreting it for themselves". Divisions, factions and more divisions seems to be the result. (there has been some good fruit too-I won't deny that)
peace
teresa
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Post by emily445455 on May 2, 2009 13:07:51 GMT -5
On a typical Sunday, I usually hear Mary's name 0 times.
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Post by alfie on May 2, 2009 16:22:20 GMT -5
Oy vey. First of all, there were no printing presses for the first 1400 or more years of Christianity!!!! I don't think anyone would have even thought that what we have today could be possible--people have all kinds of books, even multiple Bibles--which is great, but that wasn't possible for most of the History of the Church. Second, the "power structure" of the Church is not about "power" but service. Who washed people's feet this past Maundy Thursday at my Church? The priests and deacons. And they have authority (not "power") given by God. It's in the Bible. Third, it was not until the past couple of hundred years that the general pop. became as literate as 21st century Americans are. It took a long time for people to be literate because it took a long time for the printing press to be invented so that everyone could have books. Even today in many 3rd world countries, many people still can't read (or afford books if they could). So does that mean that this people can't ever know God because they can't read the Bible? No. Because faith doesn't come through "reading" it comes from "hearing" the word of God. Also, just take a look at the fruit of "everyone with their own Bible, interpreting it for themselves". Divisions, factions and more divisions seems to be the result. (there has been some good fruit too-I won't deny that) peace teresa In regards to art in the Church. Most of that was paid for by the peasants who bought Masses and indulgences. You don't need Biblical pictures and fancy art in a church. All you need in the Church is to hear the Word of God preached. And if the Word isn't being preached in a secular church then it is important that everyone has his own Bible. |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 14:39:04 GMT -5
That is a big deal to Jesus and to God who would leave behind their 99 found sheep to go look for the one lost sheep.  But the fruits are good. How can they be demonic when the fruits are good? Jesus said that good fruits cannot come from a bad tree. Are you contradicting Jesus now? And, Egypt was promised eternal peace "conditionally" not absolutely. That means that if they headed her message and turned to Christ, they would have peace. It was always their choice to do so or not. The evidence is there. We were told to be prudent, not superstitious. There will be no excuse for those that ignore obviously true signs and wonders just because they don't conform to their personal beliefs. Who's to say He didn't? |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 14:40:02 GMT -5
You know what else are false signs? All of these so called weeping statues of Mary and the Shroud of Turin. What is your evidence that they are false? |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 14:44:03 GMT -5
You know what the Church should have been doing besides spending all of its money on ritzy churchs? It should have been making copies of the Bible to give to the common people. A) The Church didn't spend that money on making ritzy Churches. This money was donated by the Parishoners. They wanted this. B) We already did that. We created The Bible, we were the first ones to print it in mass quantities and to distribute it to the world. That was Guttenberg's first job (by The Pope...oh, Guttenberg was the inventor of The Printing Press and a Catholic). Up until that time, it took up to a year to hand write a Bible so not everybody could have one and on top of that the overwhelming majority of the world (what you call the "common people") couldn't read anyway. Hence, the need for the "imagery" of the paintings and the statues...to show the stories of The Bible to those who couldnt' read. |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 14:45:11 GMT -5
I only know that in Islam the Moslems hold a very high view of Mary just like Catholics do. And this love of Mary between the two religions is going to usher in a one world religion. Don't forget to include Jesus Christ as one of those who have this high view and love of Mary too. We're in great company with Christ. |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 14:48:55 GMT -5
What? True Christians are killing each other in Northern Ireland?Give me a break. These people are going to Hell. Who? The Protestants that are killing the Catholics? Did I read that right or is this a misprint? You just wrote that real Christians should not be concerned with human rights? |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 14:50:19 GMT -5
I doubt if the Church wanted the common folk to be able to read because that would endanger the power structure of the church if they could read the Bible for themselves. Even if they could read, it wouldn't guarantee that they could understand what they read (like the Ethiopian and Philip). Besides, what if they couldn't read (as most of the world couldn't before a Catholic invented the Printing Press)? |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 14:55:29 GMT -5
The church was charging tourists an entrance fee. The more you Catholics and Orthodox focus on Mary the more it takes away from Jesus. Just like your vision does. Entrance where? The apparitions happened outside.  And, Mary brings people "to" Christ. We are supposed to focus on her. And on ourselves. And on everybody. See, Jesus told us to love each other as He loved us. That is proof of our Discipleship...now, how did Jesus love Mary? As a mother. So, we are supposed to love her as a mother too. That is, according to Jesus' own words. And if we love her as a mother, then we are supposed to honor her as the Commandment tells us to. Besides, The Bible calls Mary our mother (the "woman" being spoken of here is the one that gave birth to Jesus Christ in the beginning of Revelation 12...Mary); Revelation 12:17 This made the dragon terribly angry with the woman.
So it started a war against the rest of her children.
They are the people who obey God and are faithful to what Jesus did and taught.  |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 14:57:30 GMT -5
On a typical Sunday, I usually hear Mary's name 0 times. How many times to you hear God's name mentioned? Typically that is. |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 15:01:12 GMT -5
In regards to art in the Church. Most of that was paid for by the peasants who bought Masses and indulgences. You don't need Biblical pictures and fancy art in a church. All you need in the Church is to hear the Word of God preached. And if the Word isn't being preached in a secular church then it is important that everyone has his own Bible. Actually, you "do" need fancy art in The Church. Remember when God commanded Moses to build His Church and commanded him to put statues and artwork in it? It's all biblical Alfie.  Oh, and most of the artwork in Catholic Churches was created by Catholic artists who donated their works to The Church. You should see this documentary on Christian Art called "The Face of Christ in History". You'll learn a lot from it. If that's all you needed (was the preaching of the Word), then for that, you don't even have to go to a church. You can just stay home and read the bible. Right? |
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Post by emily445455 on May 3, 2009 16:15:00 GMT -5
How many times to you hear God's name mentioned? Typically that is. Several. |
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2009 8:40:13 GMT -5
How many times to you hear God's name mentioned? Typically that is. How many times would you say God's name is mentioned as opposed to Jesus name? I bet your church says Jesus a hundred times in your services, but God's name only about 5 times. Would that be accurate? (This is not an attack, but an observation Em...please don't take it as such. ) Several. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2009 9:50:19 GMT -5
My guess would be my pastors say God vs. Jesus about the same amount of times.
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2009 10:02:47 GMT -5
My guess would be my pastors say God vs. Jesus about the same amount of times. Really? That would be a first for me if I saw a non-Catholic Christian church represent both equally. From what I've seen over my 40+ years it's been Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and very little God. But I gotta tell you, I'm glad to hear that your church talks about God at least as much as they do about Jesus. In The Catholic Church, God is Number 1. He is mentioned far more than Jesus (at least the ones I've been to). |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2009 10:08:21 GMT -5
In The Catholic Church, God is Number 1. He is mentioned far more than Jesus (at least the ones I've been to). Why? When God the Father, Jesus, and the HS are all one God? One isn't more important than the other. |
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2009 10:13:15 GMT -5
In The Catholic Church, God is Number 1. He is mentioned far more than Jesus (at least the ones I've been to). Why? When God the Father, Jesus, and the HS are all one God? One isn't more important than the other. Jesus is subordinate to God The Father. So too must we follow His example. |
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