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Post by Cepha on Feb 11, 2009 0:44:55 GMT -5
Debate on whether or not The Doctrine of Salvation is taught in The Bible.
First, we must define what the word "doctrine" means:doc·trine n.
1. A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.
2. A rule or principle of law, especially when established by precedent.
3. A statement of official government policy, especially in foreign affairs and military strategy.
4. Archaic Something taught; a teaching. dictionary.reference.com/browse/doctrine
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Post by Cepha on Feb 11, 2009 0:47:29 GMT -5
Watchman, do you approve of this definition of the word "doctrine"?
Do you wish to add anything to it yourself?
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Post by Cepha on Feb 11, 2009 0:49:41 GMT -5
DEBATE RULES: 1. No personal insults. 2. No vulgar language. 3. No insults of one's religion. 4. No off topic diversions allowed. 5. No usage of unciteable materials. 6. No usage of biased sites to prove a point. 7. There must be a common ground agreed upon as to what Bible version will be used from which to quote scripture. 8. Opening statements must be the basis for the debate. 9. Once one of the participants is proven wrong in any capacity relating to the topic of discussion, the debate ends with that post. 10. Moderators of this site involved in a debate cannot moderate their own debate so an impartial moderator will be appointed. I believe that Knuckles makes the best candidate for this task. 11. Acceptable proofs are anything that can be cited, checked and immediately referenced online to all viewing. 12. Same "no ban" policy here applies that no one will be banned for their beliefs...only for their treatment of other members here, however, violating any of these rules will be ground for one being banned as well. That is a strict rule that must be adhered to in order to assure a respectful exchange. 13. Reference Sites Allowed: www.BibleGateway.comwww.Dictionary.comwww.Wikipedia.comwww.YouTube.com14. Suggestions are always welcomed that can improve the atmosphere of the Debate Forum. 15. Debate is only open to the two participants who are engaged in the opening statements. Any contributions by other members will be deleted. 16. Hypocrisy and/or double standards will not be tolerated. A participant who contradicts him/herself will lose the debate. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 11, 2009 0:52:21 GMT -5
My opening statement:
The Doctrine of Salvation is not taught in The Bible.
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Post by watchman on Feb 11, 2009 11:34:47 GMT -5
My opening statement: The Doctrine of Salvation is not taught in The Bible. Outline what you understand the doctrine of salvation is and then I will uses scripture to prove it. P.S. I will not attempt to give you scripture to prove the doctrine of salvation, until I know what you mean by the term. So if you are not going to tell me what you mean by doctrine of salvation then I guess this debate is over. If you want to test my ability to use scripture then give me you outline of what you believe the doctrine of salvation is. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 11, 2009 12:02:38 GMT -5
If you will not give me your version of the doctrine of salvation i will give you mine. when you agree that what I have outlined as the doctrine of salvation is correct then I will procede in proving it scripturally.
#1 You must acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
#2 That He lived a sinless life
#3 That He died for our sins.
#4 That God rose Him on the 3rd day
#5 You must acknowledge your sinfulness.
#6 You must repent of your sins.
#7 You must remiss from your sins.
#8 You must endure keeping the faith until the end. (of your life or until Jesus returns)
If you agree this is the doctrine of salvation then I will prove all 5 of these points scripturally, if you cannot agree that this is what you meant by the doctrine of salvation then you see why I did not waste my time giving scripture until I knew what you were referring to.
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Post by watchman on Feb 11, 2009 12:53:33 GMT -5
So do you agree that this is the doctrine of salvation?
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Post by Cepha on Feb 11, 2009 19:03:40 GMT -5
Outline what you understand the doctrine of salvation is and then I will uses scripture to prove it. That's not the question here...what you're saying is that you can find the seperate teachings in the Bible that support the Doctrine of Salvation. There is no doubt that they are there, but what the debate is here is that The Doctrine of Salvation (not the separate teachings) does not exist in The Bible. No, I'm not asking you to "prove" The Doctrine of Salvation...all I'm asking you is to show me where it is. We already both agree that The Doctrine of Salvation is true. There's no argument there. What I am asking you is to simply point out to where it is in The Bible using the definition of the word "doctrine" as outlined. Well, you already know what the word "Doctrine" means (I've shown you what I accept the definition to be)...as for Salvation...Salvation means for one to die in a state of Grace with God (meaning that they will be allowed entry into heaven). So, the Doctrine of Salvation are all the teachings in The Holy Bible collectively organized in a manner that fully explains all aspects of anything that has to do with Salvation. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 11, 2009 19:16:28 GMT -5
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Post by Cepha on Feb 11, 2009 19:19:37 GMT -5
If you will not give me your version of the doctrine of salvation i will give you mine. when you agree that what I have outlined as the doctrine of salvation is correct then I will procede in proving it scripturally. #1 You must acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. #2 That He lived a sinless life #3 That He died for our sins. #4 That God rose Him on the 3rd day #5 You must acknowledge your sinfulness. #6 You must repent of your sins. #7 You must remiss from your sins. #8 You must endure keeping the faith until the end. (of your life or until Jesus returns) If you agree this is the doctrine of salvation then I will prove all 5 of these points scripturally, if you cannot agree that this is what you meant by the doctrine of salvation then you see why I did not waste my time giving scripture until I knew what you were referring to. You are "not" responding to the topic of this debate. That those points that we both agree on exist in scripture is not in question. What is in question is whether or not The Doctrine of Salvation exists in The Holy Bible. We both know that the teachings do, but show me the Doctrine. Big difference. Again, "where" in The Bible is the "Doctrine" of Salvation taught? Show me the full complete collection of teaching taught at one time in one setting (not the scattered verses that were combined together to create the Doctrine, but the Doctrine itself). |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 11, 2009 19:20:23 GMT -5
So do you agree that this is the doctrine of salvation? No...you left out several of Jesus' teachings (works, communion, etc...). And that is not the topic...the topic is where in the Bible is the Doctrine of Salvation taught. If it's in The Bible, show me were. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 11, 2009 21:58:18 GMT -5
So do you agree that this is the doctrine of salvation? No...you left out several of Jesus' teachings (works, communion, etc...). And that is not the topic...the topic is where in the Bible is the Doctrine of Salvation taught. If it's in The Bible, show me were. It is impossible to show anyone anything unless both people can agree what they are talking about, unless you can give me your definition of the doctrine of salvation I cannot give you scriptural or non scripture proof for it. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 11, 2009 22:03:17 GMT -5
So do you agree that this is the doctrine of salvation? No...you left out several of Jesus' teachings (works, communion, etc...). And that is not the topic...the topic is where in the Bible is the Doctrine of Salvation taught. If it's in The Bible, show me were. If you tell me what you mean by doctrine of salvation since you have rejected my outline then I will give you scripture. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 11, 2009 23:25:24 GMT -5
No...you left out several of Jesus' teachings (works, communion, etc...). And that is not the topic...the topic is where in the Bible is the Doctrine of Salvation taught. If it's in The Bible, show me were. It is impossible to show anyone anything unless both people can agree what they are talking about, unless you can give me your definition of the doctrine of salvation I cannot give you scriptural or non scripture proof for it. Again, what does what I believe have to do with you proving that The Doctrine of Salvation is in The Bible? All you have to do is to show me the Doctrine. We don't have to agree on what it is...all you have to do is to show me "your" belief as to where it is. It only takes one reference (because the entire teachings must be included in your proof...not just "part" of it). OK, for argument's sake, I'll accept your belief. OK? How's that? Now you have no reason to "not" show me one place in The Bible where the entire Doctrine of Salvation (as you see it) is spelled out including all of those beliefs you put up. Now that that's out of the way, show me where in The Holy Bible, everything that you posted that you believe to be The Doctrine of Salvation is taught? |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 11, 2009 23:28:17 GMT -5
No...you left out several of Jesus' teachings (works, communion, etc...). And that is not the topic...the topic is where in the Bible is the Doctrine of Salvation taught. If it's in The Bible, show me were. If you tell me what you mean by doctrine of salvation since you have rejected my outline then I will give you scripture. A) That objection has already been handled. B) Show me the Scriptural proof that the Doctrine as you believe it to be is "in" The Bible. Prove that The Doctrine (as defined in this thread) is "in" The Holy Bible. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 12, 2009 0:08:16 GMT -5
No...you left out several of Jesus' teachings (works, communion, etc...). And that is not the topic...the topic is where in the Bible is the Doctrine of Salvation taught. If it's in The Bible, show me were. If you tell me what you mean by doctrine of salvation since you have rejected my outline then I will give you scripture. I already defined "doctrine". There was no objection from you. So you not only know what it means, but accept it. Now as far as Salvation goes, that's up to you what you define it for you. It doesn't have to match mine because guess what, your's isn't in The Holy Bible either. But to avoid anymore diversions, just use yours. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 12, 2009 0:12:01 GMT -5
I gave the outline of what I thought the doctrine of Salvation was and you agreed that the bible taught all of that. So I guess I win, my understanding of the doctrine of salvation is in scripture.
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Post by watchman on Feb 12, 2009 0:14:42 GMT -5
Some one who accepts Jesus as their Savior and then lives for Him,serving Him as their Lord, for the rest of their live will be saved and after death, and spend eternity with Christ. This is what I understand to be the doctrine of salvation, and I can prove this scripturally, and will so if you want me to. Outside of this I do not know what you are asking for, seeing as you have yet to tell me what you understand the doctrine of salvation to be.
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Post by watchman on Feb 12, 2009 0:19:03 GMT -5
But to avoid anymore diversions, just use yours. Not tonight because I am about to go to bed but first thing in the morning I will prove my understanding of the doctrine of salvation which is.... #1 You must acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. #2 That He lived a sinless life #3 That He died for our sins. #4 That God rose Him on the 3rd day #5 You must acknowledge your sinfulness. #6 You must repent of your sins. #7 You must remiss from your sins. #8 You must endure keeping the faith until the end. (of your life or until Jesus returns) Using only scripture. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 12, 2009 0:30:31 GMT -5
#1 You must acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
John 9:35-38
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Acts8:36-38
36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Acts 16:30-31
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
1st John 2:23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
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