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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 11:04:41 GMT -5
Europeans, if they are Jewish, sure. But they cannot be Jews by blood if they are Europeans by blood. Are you saying that Europeans not by blood but by religion have more right to Israel than Abraham's own descendants of Ishamael? Actually, the promise was to his descendants, not to him personally. He was not allowed in the promised land. Remember? I guess you missed the whole "Noah" episode, huh? Ok. I'll accept that you believe that. But history teaches us that after this promise was made, they lost the land to the Romans. How did that happen if they were supposed to have it forever? So when The Romans controlled it for hundreds of years, that wasn't God's will? Pagans overruled God? |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 11:12:31 GMT -5
Watchman, Do you believe God would deny a holy person a place in heaven? Yes? No? I nor anyone else accepts your interpretation of 1sr Cor 7:14. Why do you think that could be. Has God revealed some strange truth to you that He has not only kept from everyone else, but contradicts the rest of the Bible? Fine, but what is your answer to this question I just posted? Watchman, Do you believe God would deny a holy person a place in heaven? Yes? No? |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 11:15:27 GMT -5
I ignored the question because we both know that we both know the answer. A baby cannot deny Jesus. They do not have the mental capacity to do so. Ohhh...I see. So, you don't have to believe in Jesus Christ and be baptized to be saved. So according to you, there are instances where you can insert your own "conclusions" and believe things that aren't stated in The Holy Bible. In the immortal words of Ace Ventura, Pet Detective...:Allllllllrightee then!"  Now that you've answered that one, what about The Thief on the cross that Jesus promised would be in Heaven with Him. He wasn't baptized with water and Jesus said a person must be baptized in water. Was this just another "special circumstance"? Another "acception"? Because if it is, then that makes more than one. (And, after that, we'll tackle the household of the Roman who was saved because of his faith even though they weren't there when Jesus said this.) Watchman?  |
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Post by teresahrc on May 23, 2009 11:30:51 GMT -5
They never "lost the land to the Romans". At least, not completely. There has always been a "remnant" of Jews in Palestine. Nice try though.
The destruction of the Temple was not so much a "punishment" for rejecting Jesus, but a necessary spiritual declaration by God that the Lamb of God had already been sacrified and no longer was the Temple part of the "covenant".
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 11:39:19 GMT -5
I'm an American...but I'm not of American (Native) blood. A Jew can be European  The Jew lost the land because they don't care if they live there. God wants them to, but they have other priorities. They technically never have lost it...it is and always will be the Jew's land...no matter what man has to say on the subject. It is not God's wish for other people to live there, but He allows it since His people don't really care about it right now. |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 11:40:19 GMT -5
They never "lost the land to the Romans". At least, not completely. There has always been a "remnant" of Jews in Palestine. Nice try though. The destruction of the Temple was not so much a "punishment" for rejecting Jesus, but a necessary spiritual declaration by God that the Lamb of God had already been sacrified and no longer was the Temple part of the "covenant". How could they not have lost the land to the Romans?They were kicked out of Israel and scattered throughout the world. How do you think they ended up in Europe and around the world? Because they were persecuted out of Israel. If they owned Israel, then the Brits couldn't have given it back to them in the late 60's. No, Jesus literally said it was going to happen: Luke 19: 43 For the days shall come upon thee, when thine enemies shall cast up a bank about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44 and shall dash thee to the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 11:49:46 GMT -5
A Jew can be European But a European cannot be a Jew by blood (only by religious conversion) and thus, cannot be descendants of Abraham to whom you state the land belongs. Therefore, religiously Jewish Europeans cannot inherit the land by blood right (which is what I believe you believe). So, another case of Jews disobeying God...  So...the Romans were just "land sitting" for them? LOL! (To The Jews...) John 5:39-40
39 Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me;
40 and ye will not come to me, that ye may have life. |
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 11:53:50 GMT -5
Don't forget...Jesus said that whoever was rejected Him also rejected God...
How many of you believe that God will accept those that reject Him too?
Luke 10:16
"The one who listens to you listens to Me,
and the one who rejects you rejects Me;
and he who rejects Me rejects the One Who sent Me."
We all agree that Jews reject Jesus Christ and God according to Jesus' words, right?
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 11:56:13 GMT -5
I meant citizenship. The promise was for Jews in the line of Isaac, Jacob, and his sons. That is what I believe.
Of course Jews disobey God!! We allll disobey God!! The Jews are God's chosen people, that doesn't make them perfect by any means. That's why God's promise is unconditional. If it was conditional, it would have been lost with Jacob.
John 5 goes on to say that Jesus knows them, that they do not have the love of God in them.
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 12:49:57 GMT -5
I meant citizenship. The promise was for Jews in the line of Isaac, Jacob, and his sons. That is what I believe. Of course Jews disobey God!! We allll disobey God!! The Jews are God's chosen people, that doesn't make them perfect by any means. That's why God's promise is unconditional. If it was conditional, it would have been lost with Jacob. John 5 goes on to say that Jesus knows them, that they do not have the love of God in them. What about this: Luke 10:16 "The one who listens to you listens to Me,
and the one who rejects you rejects Me;
and he who rejects Me rejects the One Who sent Me." We all agree that Jews reject Jesus Christ and God according to Jesus' words, right? |
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 12:52:17 GMT -5
God never said His promise was conditional.
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Post by Cepha on May 23, 2009 12:59:51 GMT -5
God never said His promise was conditional. Why wasn't Moses allowed in The Promised land then? |
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 13:06:21 GMT -5
IDK, I haven't studied Exodus yet |
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 13:16:20 GMT -5
After reading over that story, it seems God didn't banish Moses from the promise land, but the privelege of bringing them into the promise land.
Numbers 20:12 And the Lord Spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believe me not, to sanctify me in the eeys of the chidlren of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land shich I have given them.
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Post by teresahrc on May 23, 2009 13:51:49 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D Ha ha very funny...
Um...my dearest brother....
YOu are too silly for words. The "great diaspora" happened centuries before 70AD. (remember the Babylonians? Persians? ) There were thousands upon thousands of Jews in Europe well before Christ was born.
And again, not all of the Jews left Palestine after 70AD. Even if only 2 or 3 were there, then technically they were there. Sorry.
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Post by teresahrc on May 23, 2009 13:55:23 GMT -5
Still, even though the land still belongs to Israel, remember what the Bible says about how they should treat the "aliens" in the land? (which to them would include the Palestinians)
9 "Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt.
(Exodus 23)
If ending the oppression of Palestinians means 2 states, then maybe their should be 2 states.
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Post by emily445455 on May 23, 2009 21:45:25 GMT -5
I am going to ask the Moses/Aaron question on a Jewish forum. They understand the OT Scriptures way better than I do. I'll let you know if/when they answer.
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Post by Cepha on May 26, 2009 8:39:55 GMT -5
After reading over that story, it seems God didn't banish Moses from the promise land, but the privelege of bringing them into the promise land. Numbers 20:12 And the Lord Spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believe me not, to sanctify me in the eeys of the chidlren of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land shich I have given them. Not only did he not bring them, he was never allowed in. Think about it, if he couldn't even bring them there, what makes you think that he could enter himself? Here are other scriptures where God forbad those who disobeyed him from promises made to others: Numbers 20:12 Num 20:24; 27:14 Deut 1:37; 3:26, 27 |
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Post by Cepha on May 26, 2009 8:41:47 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D Ha ha very funny... Um...my dearest brother.... YOu are too silly for words. The "great diaspora" happened centuries before 70AD. (remember the Babylonians? Persians? ) There were thousands upon thousands of Jews in Europe well before Christ was born. And again, not all of the Jews left Palestine after 70AD. Even if only 2 or 3 were there, then technically they were there. Sorry. Ok, but "who" was in control of Jeruselum? Their being there (the Jews) doesn't mean that they controlled it. They were under Roman rule. And...as Jesus prophesized, not one stone of the temple layed upon another after The Roman raised it to the ground "after" they rejected Jesus Christ. Right? |
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Post by Cepha on May 26, 2009 8:42:44 GMT -5
Still, even though the land still belongs to Israel, remember what the Bible says about how they should treat the "aliens" in the land? (which to them would include the Palestinians) 9 "Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt. (Exodus 23) If ending the oppression of Palestinians means 2 states, then maybe their should be 2 states. Exactly...God never approves of "evil" whether done in His name or in the name of Israel's own nation. Evil is evil. Murdering innocent children is evil. |
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