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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 10:41:46 GMT -5
Yeah, really. And what about this: 2 From the lips of children and infants
you have ordained praise
because of your enemies,
to silence the foe and the avenger. Psalm 8 Jesus said that those who worship God must worship in "Spirit" and "Truth". If these infants and children are giving God true worship, (Jesus also quoted this verse) then do they not have true genuine faith? They may not understand all the complexities of the faith, but they believe enough to render worship to God in "Spirit" and in "Truth". Or what about this excellent verse: 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus (2 Tim 3) If Timothy could know "from infancy" the holy Scriptures, "which are able to make you wise for salvation", who could have prevented him from being baptized as an infant? teresa With regards to the scripture I posted, will God condemn a holy child to hell just because they didn't accept The Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior? And, how can a person be both "holy" and "unsaved" at the same time? If the child is "holy" then doesn't that automatically make him/her saved?  |
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Post by teresahrc on May 1, 2009 10:47:04 GMT -5
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
(Colossians 2)
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Post by emily445455 on May 1, 2009 10:48:13 GMT -5
teresa- I know somewhere it talks about those who are Saved not because they accepted Christ, but because God had mercy on them...people like infants, the mentally retarded, those with dementia who believe in Christ before they got sick, etc.
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Post by Ramon on May 1, 2009 10:50:25 GMT -5
Ramon, you got me all confu-sed. What is the "ROCOR" and why is it different from other Orthodox Churches, and is there a "Russian Orthodox Church Inside Russia" and is that different from the one outside Russia? And why is this night different from all other nights? Oy vey "ROCOR" is short for The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. It's a Orthodox jurisdiction. The Orthodox Church of today consists of fourteen or fifteen autocephalous ("Autocephaly (literally "self-headed") is the status of a church within the Orthodox Church whose primatial bishop does not report to any higher-ranking bishop") churches and five autonomous churches, sometimes referred to as jurisdictions. Autocephalous churches are fully self-governing in all they do, while autonomous churches must have their primates confirmed by one of the autocephalous churches, usually its mother church. The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is our spiritual "leader", but even he can not interfere with other Church Jurisdictions. All the Orthodox churches remain in full communion with one another, sharing the same faith and praxis. The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are those Russian Orthodox Churches that are in full communion with the Russian Church, but are located in the United States of America (etc). In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 10:50:49 GMT -5
I could understand that. So you feel that the Biblical Tradition of children being baptized is invalid? Invalid? Invalid for what? Salvation? I don't believe water baptism is necessary for Salvation. I also don't believe infant baptism is Biblical. Well, in The Bible, it states that "households" were baptized. A household is made up of everybody living in the home from an infant up to the elderly. This means that children were automatically included in being bapitzed in scriptrue. Acts 16:15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.Now, notice that it said "members" besides her. That means that there would have to have been children there as well. It never mentions other relatives, but relatives generally had their own households, this one was hers (and presumably her husband's). So, since it was talking about her and someone else, then it would have to have meant children (her and her husband's children). If they were grown up, they'd be on their own with their own households. |
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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 10:53:55 GMT -5
I don't believe water baptism is necessary for Salvation. John 3:5 Jesus answered,
"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God
unless he is born of water and the Spirit. |
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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 10:55:50 GMT -5
Scriptures is not against Infant Baptism. Actually, Infant Baptism originated by the Holy Apostles. Cepha gave a wonderful fact above (concerning the word "household"). Infant Baptism was practice by the Early Church (1st-10th Century). The Holy Fathers of the Church believed in Infant Baptism, although some was baptize as adults and some Early Christians delayed there Baptism because they believed in the heresy that stated that anyone who sin after Baptism will never be forgiven. It was only recently been challenged by Protestants. Also read Col 2:11-12, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults In IC.XC, Ramon Not only that, does The Holy Bible "forbid" infant baptism? |
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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 10:57:35 GMT -5
Just because the Bible doesn't say "Baptize infants" doesn't mean it isn't true. Where in the Bible does it say that children "under the age of accountability" will go to heaven? I've never read that, but most Christians believe that's true. teresa Or for that matter, where in The Bible does it say the world "Bible"? Or Trinity? Or Rapture?  |
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Post by teresahrc on May 1, 2009 10:58:27 GMT -5
I agree with that, but where is it in the Bible? There's no specific verse that says what you just said. People have combined different verses, and quite frankly, have assumed this to be true because the nature of God which is love and mercy.
But there is definely no verse in the Bible that says "Do not baptize infants". But the early Church, and all the ancient Apostolic Churches have ...combined different verses and assumed that infant baptism is also true. ....and the Trinity, and the divinity of Christ etc.
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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 10:59:36 GMT -5
teresa- I know somewhere it talks about those who are Saved not because they accepted Christ, but because God had mercy on them...people like infants, the mentally retarded, those with dementia who believe in Christ before they got sick, etc. It also talks about those who never accepted Christ has pleasing God and being justified in His view therefore being granted Salvation (Romans 2). I'd love to see that scripture you are referring to. It sounds like a great example.  |
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Post by emily445455 on May 1, 2009 10:59:46 GMT -5
I cannot earn my Salvation, it is a gift from above.
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Post by teresahrc on May 1, 2009 11:00:26 GMT -5
Ok, but the rules for baptism can be different? Or are one of those Russian Churches heretical? That's where I'm confused.
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Post by teresahrc on May 1, 2009 11:02:27 GMT -5
Hey, Cepha, are you copying me or what?
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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 11:04:51 GMT -5
I agree with that, but where is it in the Bible? There's no specific verse that says what you just said. People have combined different verses, and quite frankly, have assumed this to be true because the nature of God which is love and mercy. But there is definely no verse in the Bible that says "Do not baptize infants". But the early Church, and all the ancient Apostolic Churches have ...combined different verses and assumed that infant baptism is also true. ....and the Trinity, and the divinity of Christ etc. Acts 2:38-39 "And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.'" Acts 16:29-34 "The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' They replied, ' Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved -- you and your household.' Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God —- he and his whole family." Here are examples of one member of a household being saved saving the rest of his household that wasn't physically present to be saved. Therefore, a parent can on behalf of his/her children/child have that child saved by their own faith. |
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Post by teresahrc on May 1, 2009 11:06:17 GMT -5
You are right. But how do you receive that gift? The gift isn't given to everyone. Why not? Some don't believe/repent etc. It's not a passive thing where God forces you to accept it. You have to reach out your hand to accept a gift. That doesn't mean it isn't free.
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
(James 2 )
Those verses used to make me mad when I was a Protestant. But it's God's Word, so it cannot be a lie.
peace
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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 11:06:47 GMT -5
I cannot earn my Salvation, it is a gift from above. Salvation from original sin is a gift, but eternal salvation must be earned. You must first repent of your sins then make a proclamation to accept Jesus. Without those works, you cannot be saved. |
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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 11:07:27 GMT -5
Hey, Cepha, are you copying me or what? LOL! I noticed that too! Great minds think alike hey? LOL! |
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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 11:08:30 GMT -5
Isn't is beautiful how Catholics separated by hundreds of miles, because of the unity of The Magisterium could still be on the same page? That's why we've been around for 2,000 years. That's why we won't splinter off into many groups. That's why we are universal (Catholic) Christians. |
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Post by teresahrc on May 1, 2009 11:09:23 GMT -5
I think you are my twin brother, separated at birth.
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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 11:11:06 GMT -5
I think you are my twin brother, separated at birth. I think you are the "kindler, gentler" version of me! Sometimes I've read your posts thinking they were mine. |
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