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Post by Ramon on May 1, 2009 11:11:16 GMT -5
Ok, but the rules for baptism can be different? Or are one of those Russian Churches heretical? That's where I'm confused. Yes, rebaptism is done on some Orthodox Churches. One jurisdiction does not view the other as a heretical, even if they rebaptize non-Orthodox Christians. The Bishop or Priest of a parish decides whether or not a particular non-Orthodox Christian should get baptized again or be received into the Orthodox Church through Chrismation only. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by teresahrc on May 1, 2009 11:13:46 GMT -5
Sometimes I read yours and think "why didn't I think of that" haha!
I'll be back later, God willing, but right now I have to go paint. I have to have 3 large oil paintings done by like...um.. tomorrow basically.
(you can delete this post since it's off subject)
peace
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Post by Ramon on May 1, 2009 11:53:43 GMT -5
I cannot earn my Salvation, it is a gift from above. Yes, it is a gift, but one must accept the gift. They have to believe, repent, enter into the Baptismal Font, receive Christmation, and partake of the Divine Eucharist (the Body and Blood of Christ), and live a life worthy of one's invocation. Scriptures make it perfectly clear that salvation is life long process, not a passive moment. Scriptures are against works of the law, but not works of grace (Read James, and Titus) Scriptures are clear that Holy Baptism and the Holy Eucharist are two most important Sacraments and are require (John 3:3; 6:53-56). Scriptures are not against infant Baptism. Your belief that infants can not be baptize is your opinion, not a solid dogma in Scriptures. The Church, since the 1st Century, baptize infants. This can also be verified by Icons in graves of babies being baptized, some can be traced back to the 2nd Century. Please read these Scriptures Acts 16:15, Acts 2:39, Acts 10:47-48). If you study Greek you will know that the word "household" ("oikos") included infants. Also read Col 2:11-12. In IC.XC, Ramon "But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased" (Hebrews 13:16). |
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Post by emily445455 on May 1, 2009 12:31:24 GMT -5
Ramon- The Bible says we should be baptized after we accept Christ.
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Post by Ramon on May 1, 2009 13:24:39 GMT -5
Scriptures doesn't say ONLY adults may be baptize. It only give examples of adults who believe (made a profession of faith) and then got Baptize.
Scriptures does not forbid Infant Baptism. That is your opinion, but since the Apostolic Era;Christians been baptizing Infants. Please reread the Scriptures I gave. They give evidence that Infants was baptize by the Holy Apostles. All the Apostolic Churches today has kept that ancient practice.
In IC.XC,
Ramon
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Post by watchman on May 1, 2009 13:32:54 GMT -5
Not only that, does The Holy Bible "forbid" infant baptism? The Bible does not forbid infant baptism, but it is a meaningless, useless religious ritual, that can in no way save anyone of their sins. You are saved from your sins by repentance which precedes baptism. |
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Post by watchman on May 1, 2009 13:41:05 GMT -5
Acts 2:38-39 "And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.'" This is not saying that you should baptize children, but that this promise of for those which heard him speak as well as their kids, and the kids kids ect.. and for all afar off The household had to believe to be saved they were not saved because of the confession of one man even if that one was the father of the house. |
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Post by watchman on May 1, 2009 13:44:26 GMT -5
I cannot earn my Salvation, it is a gift from above. Salvation from original sin is a gift, but eternal salvation must be earned. You must first repent of your sins then make a proclamation to accept Jesus. Without those works, you cannot be saved. I agree with this, and not only that but then you must endure until the end holding on to your profession. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 1, 2009 14:09:09 GMT -5
In Acts, Paul tell the eunich that he may be baptized "if" he believes on Jesus Christ. It's an if-then kind of thing. I don't think it's a sin to baptize babies...but like watchman said, it's useless, and will not be done to my children.
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Post by watchman on May 1, 2009 14:40:13 GMT -5
It is Philip that converts the Eunuch.
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Post by emily445455 on May 1, 2009 14:51:18 GMT -5
Oops, wrong P person.
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 13:42:39 GMT -5
The Bible does not forbid infant baptism, but it is a meaningless, useless religious ritual, that can in no way save anyone of their sins. You admit that this is your "personal" opinion and not a biblically based fact, right? And, since it's not forbidden and it has been practiced by Christianity for 2,000 years, has Christianity been wrong for 2,000 years according to you today?  |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 13:53:00 GMT -5
Acts 2:38-39 "And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.'" This is not saying that you should baptize children, but that this promise of for those which heard him speak as well as their kids, and the kids kids ect.. and for all afar off The point of that scripture is to show that the children were saved because of the parent being baptized. Do you agree? And, that is the point, that the children did not need to make any acts of proclamation that they accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, right? They were saved because their parents were saved, right? It has nothing to do with "having" to baptize children. I don't think anybody here ever even brought that up (that children "had to" be baptized). No, that doesn't say that the household had to believe. It said that they would be saved if "he" believed... He asked what "he" must do to be saved (not what his family must do). And they told him what "he" had to do to be saved and what the benefits of his own salvation would be (that his family would be saved). No where in that scripture does it say that the entire household beleived, only that they were baptized (and subsequently, saved). Right? It said that they were spoken to, but does not say that they believed. Only that they were baptized. If we go only by the written word without infusing our own automatic assertions, then we cannot believe that they all believed...only that they were baptized because the Bible doesn't say that they all beleived. What about this woman's household that doesn't state that it had to believe to be saved? See? There is no mention of her household believing, only that she worshipped God and that they were saved. Also, you'll note that her "household" was saved (meaning that if there were infants in the house, they would've been baptized as well...not excluded). Acts 16 13On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. "If you consider me a believer in the Lord," she said, "come and stay at my house." And she persuaded us. |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 14:04:23 GMT -5
Salvation from original sin is a gift, but eternal salvation must be earned. You must first repent of your sins then make a proclamation to accept Jesus. Without those works, you cannot be saved. I agree with this, and not only that but then you must endure until the end holding on to your profession. Ahhh...so that's two of ya'll that believe that works are essential to salvation. Very good. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 3, 2009 14:08:43 GMT -5
And, since it's not forbidden and it has been practiced by Christianity for 2,000 years, has Christianity been wrong for 2,000 years according to you today? IMO "Christianity" has and does a lot of things wrong. |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 14:14:40 GMT -5
In Acts, Paul tell the eunich that he may be baptized "if" he believes on Jesus Christ. It's an if-then kind of thing. I don't think it's a sin to baptize babies...but like watchman said, it's useless, and will not be done to my children. Let's look at the encounter: Acts 8:26-40 (King James Version) 26And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. God sends and angel to commission Phillip. 27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. Here, the Ethiopian says that he needs a "man" to guide him (I guess this shoots down the theory that we as believers don't need a "man" telling us what or how to believe). 32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Here, even thought he read the scripture himself, without the guidance of Philip, he still didn't get it. 35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Here, Philip states that he is to "believe" (but doesn't specify what he is to believe, just that he is to believe). 38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. Here, we have Philip being taken away like Enoch by God. |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 14:24:03 GMT -5
It is Philip that converts the Eunuch. No, it is God that converts the Eunich. Philip is just a tool. |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 14:25:40 GMT -5
And, since it's not forbidden and it has been practiced by Christianity for 2,000 years, has Christianity been wrong for 2,000 years according to you today? IMO "Christianity" has and does a lot of things wrong. Then in your opinion, Jesus lied when He said that the gates of Hell would not prevail over His Church (that Satan would not corrupt the Church/Christianity)? See, to me, Christianity does nothing wrong because Christianity is Jesus' teachings. Human beings do wrong (Christians), but not Christianity. |
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Post by watchman on May 3, 2009 15:51:53 GMT -5
The Bible does not forbid infant baptism, but it is a meaningless, useless religious ritual, that can in no way save anyone of their sins. You admit that this is your "personal" opinion and not a biblically based fact, right? No I do not admit that. Baptism without repentance in useless, and meaningless. Reading extra biblical material is not forbidden that does mean it will save you. There are many, many thing not forbidden in scripture that are pointless, and useless. I know of no evidence that the first generation of Christians baptized unconfessed people much less babies. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 3, 2009 16:24:09 GMT -5
Then in your opinion, Jesus lied when He said that the gates of Hell would not prevail over His Church (that Satan would not corrupt the Church/Christianity)? See, to me, Christianity does nothing wrong because Christianity is Jesus' teachings. Human beings do wrong (Christians), but not Christianity. Jesus does not lie. But I also do not believe He meant the RCC when He said that statement. |
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