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Post by watchman on May 3, 2009 20:50:42 GMT -5
Then in your opinion, Jesus lied when He said that the gates of Hell would not prevail over His Church (that Satan would not corrupt the Church/Christianity)? See, to me, Christianity does nothing wrong because Christianity is Jesus' teachings. Human beings do wrong (Christians), but not Christianity.  Jesus does not lie. But I also do not believe He meant the RCC when He said that statement. Exactly, the fact that the RCC is corrupt, does not mean Jesus lied or that Satan has prevailed. |
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2009 8:37:06 GMT -5
No I do not admit that. Baptism without repentance in useless, and meaningless. What mortal sins would babies have to repent of? Can a sinless person be baptized without having to repent? Or is sin a requirement of being baptized? Well, we're not talking about pointless things, but the mandatory things like baptism (which is what Jesus commanded, right)? Nobody pointed out that computers are mandatory in going online. Or how one has to change their oil in a car every 3,000 miles. We're talking about something that is actually "in" The Bible that Jesus commanded. Unless you are born again of water and spirit, you will not go to heaven. It's it and that's that. |
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2009 9:12:38 GMT -5
Then in your opinion, Jesus lied when He said that the gates of Hell would not prevail over His Church (that Satan would not corrupt the Church/Christianity)? See, to me, Christianity does nothing wrong because Christianity is Jesus' teachings. Human beings do wrong (Christians), but not Christianity. Jesus does not lie. But I also do not believe He meant the RCC when He said that statement. But that's been the only Christian Church in existance since the time of The Apostles and it was started by Peter whom Jesus gave authority to start His Church. You do know that The Christian Church started by Peter was established in Rome, right? And that Paul went to Rome a lot because it was the center of the civilized world and the best place from which to evangelize, right? Jesus was literally talking about His Church which is The Universal Chrisitan Church that was headquartered in Rome, the center of His persecutors lands where He (Jesus) eventually overtook it...doing the complete opposite of what He preached in Matthew 16:18...here, Jesus' Gates overtook Satan's work in Rome and prevailed against Rome converting Rome to Christianity without war, without weapons! Just with The Church! Amen! |
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2009 9:15:22 GMT -5
Exactly, the fact that the RCC is corrupt, does not mean Jesus lied or that Satan has prevailed. According to your mind. But the facts are the facts. Peter started The Church and only Peter was given the authority to do so. So to say that The Catholic Church is corrupt is to say that The Gates of Hell prevailed against it and that Jesus lied. When scripture meets history, there is undeniable truth (not conjecture). |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2009 9:55:31 GMT -5
Cepha- what a ridiculous question about babies. It's like asking if a woman has to repent for being raped.
A sinless man was baptized.
And I believe we've discussed where I stand on Christians outside of the RCC...or maybe that was with Ramon...don't remember.
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2009 10:09:45 GMT -5
Cepha- what a ridiculous question about babies. It's like asking if a woman has to repent for being raped. A sinless man was baptized. And I believe we've discussed where I stand on Christians outside of the RCC...or maybe that was with Ramon...don't remember. So then you believe that babies are sinless and dont' need to repent in order to be baptized? |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2009 10:44:43 GMT -5
I believe babies are sinless. I also believe water baptism is for those who have accepted Jesus into their lives. I also believe babies are not capable of making that decision.
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Post by Ramon on May 4, 2009 10:58:45 GMT -5
I believe babies are sinless. I also believe water baptism is for those who have accepted Jesus into their lives. Then prove these doctrines using Scriptures....if you can. The belief that babies are sinless and are not guilty before God is not based on Scriptures. "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy." (1 Cor 7:14) Please Eph. 2:3. We are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teaches that we are conceived in sin and born unclean. We are born with the effects of Ancestral Sin (or original sin) such as death, sickness, inclination to sin, etc. Since the fall of Adam and Eve, man has been separated from God since birth (Romans 5:12), and needed a savior to return him to the lovely union he or she had with God when He created everything. Since the first century, Holy Baptism was seen as a way to bring these Infants in the Church, and become Saints, washing away there uncleanness. Infant Baptism was practice since the 1st Century. The Fathers of the Church since the 1st Century taught Infant Baptism and was the universal practice of the Church (both West and East) till a couple of centuries ago...... In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2009 11:09:09 GMT -5
I think somewhere in Romans, but I'm not sure.
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Post by Ramon on May 4, 2009 11:10:32 GMT -5
I think somewhere in Romans, but I'm not sure. No, I read the Book of Romans, and never did Saint Paul said Infants was born sinless.......Try again..... In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2009 11:15:47 GMT -5
It doesn't say infants specifically...but it talks about those who are going to heaven simply because God has mercy on them.
Do you believe babies go to hell then? And the mentally retarded? And those who aquire dementia after they were Saved?
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Post by Ramon on May 4, 2009 11:22:05 GMT -5
It doesn't say infants specifically...but it talks about those who are going to heaven simply because God has mercy on them. Where? That is different from saying Infants are going to heaven simply because they are sinless. I also said before that while we are bound to God's Sacraments (or Holy Mysteries), God is not bound to His Sacraments and can saved whomever He wills, whether infants or adults. This doesn't negate, however, the Historical and Biblical doctrine of Holy Baptism, which regard it as a regeneration (or rebirth). Do you believe babies go to hell then? And the mentally retarded? And those who aquire dementia after they were Saved? I am not saying that. I leave Infants in the hands of the Almighty God, who has a abundance of Mercy and Grace. We Orthodox pray for all have died and ask God for mercy on there souls. What Scriptures and the Church since the first century have taught is the following: We are born with the effects of Ancestral Sin (or original sin) such as death, sickness, inclination to sin, etc. Since the fall of Adam and Eve, man has been separated from God since birth (Romans 5:12), and needed a savior to return him to the lovely union he or she had with God when He created everything. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2009 11:28:35 GMT -5
I believe babies are sinless, but that's not what "Saves" them. God is a merciful God, He Saves those who cannot make the decision for themselves. I do not believe, however, God will allow someone who rejected Christ in this life into heaven. God is not a liar, and He says we must be born again.
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Post by Ramon on May 4, 2009 11:31:21 GMT -5
I believe babies are sinlesse You may believe that, but Scriptures doesn't say that. It teaches the opposite (please read the Scriptures I gave). Again, I would like you to prove from Scriptures that Infants are born sinless. Where? Please give Book, Chapter, and Verse. What do you do with other Scriptures that prove Infants are not born sinless. Do you simply discard them or pass by them? In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2009 11:43:43 GMT -5
Seems that 1 Cor is saying that children are made holy thru their parents actions.
I don't have any Scriptures that I know of that say infants are sinless. Just something I know from being around them.
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2009 11:52:11 GMT -5
It doesn't say infants specifically...but it talks about those who are going to heaven simply because God has mercy on them. Do you believe babies go to hell then? And the mentally retarded? And those who aquire dementia after they were Saved? That's might "Catholic" of you Emily.  |
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Post by Ramon on May 4, 2009 11:53:33 GMT -5
Seems that 1 Cor is saying that children are made holy thru their parents actions. Great, then they wasn't Holy to begin with. If they were made Holy through there parents actions, then they wasn't born sinless as you said. You can't believe both emily. I don't have any Scriptures that I know of that say infants are sinless. Just something I know from being around them. Great. Scriptures doesn't say Infants are sinless. We finally agree upon that. Thereby, your belief that Infants are sinless is your personal opinion, but one that contradicts existing Scriptures. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2009 11:57:15 GMT -5
Ramon, I have a lot more studying to do of the Scriptures. But as of right now, I believe infants are sinless based on what others have told me from their studies |
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Post by Cepha on May 4, 2009 11:59:28 GMT -5
Seems that 1 Cor is saying that children are made holy thru their parents actions. I don't have any Scriptures that I know of that say infants are sinless. Just something I know from being around them. BINGO! |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 4, 2009 12:01:36 GMT -5
Parents baptiseing their infants, its the parents job to make this happen~
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