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Post by Cepha on May 27, 2009 9:15:09 GMT -5
It is nauseating to think about. How can there be so many denominations, each one with different doctrines and 99% claim that they interpret the Bible correctly? It nauseates me because I hate to be confused. I spent most of the first part of my life as a Christian trying to figure out who was right and never really knowing for sure. I never want to live in confusion again. There is one question to answer all of this "confusion"... ...Since there can only be "one" true Church, which one is it out of the 33,000 Denominations? No two of them actually agree with each other 100%, so since they don't agree with each other, they are seperated by doctrinal differences and not one denominational church can lay claim to be Apostolically founded (which The Bible says, The Church is [founded upon The Apostles]). Only The Catholic Church (RCC/EO) can make that claim. Thus, only The Catholic Church can be called a "Biblical" Church. Reading The Bible doesn't make a group of Christians a "Biblically" founded church. It's founder is a man (which ever pastor is it's leader and founder physically). But again, here is the question that will answer all the confusion: Which church is The Church that The Bible talks about when it says "the church"? I say it is the Apostolically founded Catholic Church which is the only Church that can be traced back through history to the first century, who's leaders (Popes) are mentioned in Scripture by name, who The Church Fathers literally name and defend in Ancient Christian Writings. My proof can either be confirmed or denied by the evidence I provided in The Church Fathers Thread here. What is anybody else's answer as to which Protestant Denominational church is the right one? (And, if there is no right one, then Jesus' Church [the one founded by The Apostles in Rome] ceased to exist at some point in time...please supply the date that this happened) |
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Post by Cepha on May 27, 2009 9:17:41 GMT -5
So...what does the word " sanctify" mean here Watchman? Your argument is not with me it is with every single person that has ever read 1st Cor 7:14. No one not one single person agrees with you. You continue to bob & weave, refusing to answer the definition of the word. You silence speaks volumes about your ability to defend your position because you cannot defend it. Anybody who denies that sanctified means "holy" is wrong. And The Bible and I are right. You won't find one person, not one person here who denies that sanctified means holy and what's more, you won't find one person (not even yourself) that believes that holy persons are denied heaven. (By the way, that's another question you never answered...whether or not, holy persons are denied heaven.) ;D Will you "not" challenge me on my statement that that quote you chose to try to prove that you have "religious" teaching authority over your wife isn't proven in Eph 5? I did show how religious authority is not mentioned there anywhere, notice that? |
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Post by Cepha on May 27, 2009 9:22:15 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you there. I believe Protestants read their Bibles more than Catholics. In this country in particular. I agree that protestants read more than catholics, but the fact remains most do not study for themselves as they should Kind of ironic no? That The Catholic Church is criticized for "teaching" The Bible, and when left to study for their own, they (Non-Catholic Christians) rely on their "religious leaders" to teach them. So, what does that say about criticism of a physical Church "teaching" the word of God? Catch 22. ;D |
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Post by Cepha on May 27, 2009 9:24:04 GMT -5
Yeah, but that narrow gate doesn't have a "quantity" attached to it. Fragment of what? Of how do you determine what number is a fragment? Does The Bible list the number of believers in 2009? Is it a fragment of the 2 Billion Christians? Or is the 2 Billion Christians a fragment of the 6 Billion people? And how do you determine this? By using Biblical figures? Or by your own calculations?  There is definitely not 2 billion true believers in the world. There may be 2 billion confessing Christian, however the remnant would be a fragment of those, a small fragment indeed no more than maybe 20% How did you come to the number of 20%? What mathematical calculations with accordance to scripture did you use to arrive at this number? Or is this just a "guesstimate" on your half? Your own "personal" assumption? |
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Post by teresahrc on May 27, 2009 9:33:35 GMT -5
Yeah, wouldn't you have to go around and interview every single Christian and observe the fruit in their life to see whether or not they are sincere? And if say, that number was higher--say maybe 30% then aren't you slandering the 10% that you claim weren't real Christians?
How about this:
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of people's hearts. At that time each will receive their praise from God. (1 Cor. 4:5)
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Post by Cepha on May 27, 2009 9:37:14 GMT -5
That is exactly why you should trust in God and God alone. Not a man made religion. Exactly, and that's why God left us The Universal Christian Church (aka, The Catholic Church). Jesus prophesized about The Protestant Revolt in Matthew 7: Matthew 7 1Judge not, that ye be not judged. Here, Jesus talks about those who "think" that they have the ability to judge others (this will make itself relative later in the passage). 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Here, Jesus talks about how judgement of others leads to one's own downfall and judgement, this is also what Martin Luther stated when he showed regret for what his work brought about (the division of Christianity which is something that he supposedly never wanted in the first place). 6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. This is hurled at those who allowed themselves to be misled by those Demonic forces that led to the division of Christ's body of believers and that led them into false religions (denominationalism or as I like to put it: "demon nations"). 7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? This is for those who believe that Jesus Christ left us "churchless" to fend for ourselves, that He didn't leave us a Magisterium (Holy Ones to lead us...The Priests mentioned in The New Testament, The Elders aka, The Bishops of The Church). 12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Ahhh, this reminds me of those who abstain from The Universal Christian teaching of The Holy Eucharist! Those for whom this teaching is too difficult to "hear" in John 6! Only The Catholic Church has chosen this (and all other) narrow gates of faith. No other Christians can accept the teachings of The Saints, of Confession, of The Magisterium, of the belief that Jesus Christ left us a Church. Non-Catholic Christians choose to be in more "broad" denominational churches where they can pick and choose which beliefs they accept instead of just receiving all the beliefs in The Bible. The broad gate is denominationalism. If you dont' believe me, which Christian Religion only has one Church (narrow gate that Peter The First Pope was given The Keys too) and the broad gate (33,000+ different denominations of belief systems where one can go to where their most "comfortable" with)? 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Wow...what are the fruits of Denominationalism? Confusion.
Division.
Separation of The Christian Body.
False doctrines (Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, etc...).
New Bibles (plural).
Alteration of scripture to create new beliefs.What is the fruit of The Catholic Church? The Holy Bible.
The Church Fathers.
The Magisterium.
The Doctrine of Salvation.
The Doctrine of Justification.
The Doctrine of The Holy Trinity.This is readily self-explanatory. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. This geared towards those OSAS believers...those who think that just because they recognize that Jesus Christ is Lord, that they are guaranteed entry into Heaven. Nothing could be further from The Truth. Here, Jesus condemns those who truly believe in Him to eternal damnation because they did not "live" their faith (they only professed it). They think because they did "things" in His name that that was some sort of proof that they could get in, but Jesus showed them. These are Exclusionary Christians who believe that they are the only ones who will get into Heaven because they "believe" and that's it. Another proof of false Denominational Christian doctrine which misleads well intentioned people into the same place that the goats go to. Why sheep and goats? Because both are herded. Both are led by shepherds. From afar, both look like each other, but up close, one could see the "horns" of the goats. Like their father's horns (Satan). They may look alike, but they don't act alike. They think that "knowing" Jesus is the key to Salvation...Jesus teaches that it's His "knowing" you that is the key to Salvation. Amen! 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. The Catholic Church, the only Church founded upon "rock", while Protestanism was founded upon "men". This why The Catholic Church has been steady and strong and forever growing for 2,000 years while Protestant Churches continue to fall into division amongst themselves. Because they were founded by "men" (or are based upon soil), their foundations are washed away when the storms (spirits that attack them as spirits are often referred to in terms of water in scripture; e.g. when Jesus gave up His spirit, water poured from His body on The Cross, to be baptized, it must be of "water and spirit", etc...). The Catholic Church being founded upon Peter (Simon who was named "Rock" in Matthew 16:18), is "rock" solid, for Peter is not man, but an ordained Priest of God and Jesus separates Priests from man. The granddaddy of them all: Which Church is built upon Cephas? (Cephas means "rock" or "Peter") The Catholic Church. Which church is built upon sand (aka "soil" or that which man is made of...in other words, which church is built upon "man")? The Protestant church. How is this proven? Because Peter, a Priest of God as ordained by Jesus Christ (Himself a Priest), is separated from "man" by His offices (as when Jesus told a lepor He healed to "tell no man, but go show theyself to a Priest". So, The Church built upon Simon The Rock is not built upon a "man", but upon a Priest and thus, is not subject to being led by men, but by The Holy Spirit (which was also promised to The Biblical Church led by Saint Peter in Acts). What about Protestantism? Let's take a look...you won't find one Protestant church that can claim Apostolic Succession (much less, that their religious leaders as ours have been named in The Bible): Church Year Established Founder Where Established Catholic 33 Jesus Christ Jerusalem
Orthodox 1054 Schismatic Catholic
Bishops Constantinople
Lutheran 1517 Martin Luther Germany
Anabaptist 1521 Nicholas Storch &
Thomas Munzer Germany
Anglican 1534 Henry VIII England
Mennonites 1536 Menno Simons Switzerland
Calvinist 1555 John Calvin Switzerland
Presbyterian 1560 John Knox Scotland
Congregational 1582 Robert Brown Holland
Baptist 1609 John Smyth Amsterdam
Dutch Reformed 1628 Michaelis Jones New York
Congregationalist 1648 Pilgrims and Puritans Massachusetts
Quakers 1649 George Fox England
Amish 1693 Jacob Amman France
Freemasons 1717 Masons from four lodges London
Methodist 1739 John & Charles
Wesley England
Unitarian 1774 Theophilus Lindey London
Methodist Episcopal 1784 60 Preachers Baltimore, MD
Episcopalian 1789 Samuel Seabury American Colonies
United Brethren 1800 Philip Otterbein &
Martin Boehn Maryland
Disciples of Christ 1827 Thomas & Alexander
Campbell Kentucky
Mormon 1830 Joseph Smith New York
Methodist Protestant 1830 Methodist United States
Church of Christ 1836 Warren Stone &
Alexander Campbell Kentucky
Seventh Day Adventist 1844 Ellen White Washington, NH
Christadelphian (Brethren
of Christ 1844 John Thomas Richmond, VA
Salvation Army 1865 William Booth London
Holiness 1867 Methodist United States
Jehovah's Witnesses 1874 Charles Taze Russell Pennsylvania
Christian Science 1879 Mary Baker Eddy Boston
Church of God in Christ 1895 Various churches of God Arkansas
Church of Nazarene c. 1850-1900 Various religious bodies Pilot Point, TX
Pentecstal 1901 Charles F. Parkham Topeka, KS
Aglipayan 1902 Gregorio Aglipay Philippines
Assemblies of God 1914 Pentecostalism Hot Springs, AZ
Iglesia ni Christo 1914 Felix Manalo Philippines
Four-square Gospel 1917 Aimee Semple
McPherson Los Angeles, CA
United Church of Christ 1961 Reformed and
Congregationalist Philadelphia, PA
Calvary Chapel 1965 Chuck Smith Costa Mesa, CA
United Methodist 1968 Methodist and United
Brethren Dallas, TX
Born-again c. 1970s Various religious bodies United States
Harvest Christian 1972 Greg Laurie Riverside, CA
Saddleback 1982 Rick Warren California
Non-denominational c. 1990s various United States 28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.This is an authentication of Jesus' teaching authority on the matter and thus is beyond reproach. Everything stated here must be accepted as written without personal misinterpretation to meet modern acceptabilities and capabilities of faith. The Catholic Church is founded upon Simon The Rock...aka "Peter" which literally translates into the word "rock". Or, in Aramaic..."Cephas". ;D |
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Post by teresahrc on May 27, 2009 9:54:25 GMT -5
Authority given by God is NOT
man made.
Jesus gave Peter and the Apostles the authority to "bind" and "loose" yet you say that is a human invention!
It is not suprising that those who deny the sacraments(not necessarily every one here--non-Catholics in general except maybe Anglicans) also have no concept of God giving authority to the Church.
It's like everything good is spiritual only, and everything physical is bad.
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Post by Cepha on May 27, 2009 9:59:27 GMT -5
It is nauseating to think about. How can there be so many denominations, each one with different doctrines and 99% claim that they interpret the Bible correctly? It nauseates me because I hate to be confused. I spent most of the first part of my life as a Christian trying to figure out who was right and never really knowing for sure. I never want to live in confusion again. That is exactly why you should trust in God and God alone. Not a man made religion. Good thing The Catholic Church was led by Saint Peter (who was a Priest and Jesus separates The Priesthood from ordinary man). ;D |
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Post by teresahrc on May 27, 2009 10:05:22 GMT -5
Totally.
24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.(Mark 3)
Non-Catholic Christians are totally divided against themselves. No one can prove any thing to the contrary.
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Post by Cepha on May 27, 2009 10:06:48 GMT -5
Authority given by God is NOT man made. Jesus gave Peter and the Apostles the authority to "bind" and "loose" yet you say that is a human invention! It is not suprising that those who deny the sacraments(not necessarily every one here--non-Catholics in general except maybe Anglicans) also have no concept of God giving authority to the Church. It's like everything good is spiritual only, and everything physical is bad. Funny thing is that Jesus Himself defended the "physical" Church (The Temple) when He showed His rage when the money changers were using it improperly. If the physical Church didn't matter, why would Jesus get angry? If physical holy places didnt' matter, why did Moses have to remove his sandals when he stepped on holy ground in front of God? Why were the tablets of the 10 Commandments so revered and ordered to be protected by God? If only the spiritual is important, why have a physical "book" (The Bible) to get your faith from? Too many questions arise when one steps away from Universal Chrisitanity (for which all these questions were answered thousands of years ago). I've never met a devout Catholic who's ever had problems like devout Protestants have. This in no way makes the Protestant anyless a Christian than the Catholic, but they are burdened with such heavy, heavy man-introduced beliefs that Catholics have to deal with.  |
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Post by watchman on May 27, 2009 10:07:11 GMT -5
It is nauseating to think about. How can there be so many denominations, each one with different doctrines and 99% claim that they interpret the Bible correctly? It nauseates me because I hate to be confused. I spent most of the first part of my life as a Christian trying to figure out who was right and never really knowing for sure. I never want to live in confusion again. There is one question to answer all of this "confusion"... ...Since there can only be "one" true Church, which one is it out of the 33,000 Denominations? Asked an answered, all true believers is Christ who have made Him not only Savior but Lord of their lives also are part of the body of Christ ie the true Church. |
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Post by Cepha on May 27, 2009 10:12:43 GMT -5
Asked an answered, all true believers is Christ who have made Him not only Savior but Lord of their lives also are part of the body of Christ ie the true Church. If their all true believer with different beliefs, how can this be reconciled? It's impossible. Name the true Church? (You can't say "universal"...we already got that one). Where is it? In The Bible, The Church was a visible institution with a Heirchy of religious leaders (Bishops, Deacons, etc...). So, this "true" Church must have the same attributes. So therefore, it must be identifiable. Identify that "church" you speak of. It can't be made up of all denominations because there were no denominations in Jesus' church, so it has to be "one" denomination (which was coincidentally Jesus Christ's wish...that all the members of His Church be "one" as He and The Father were "one"...not 33,000+). |
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Post by teresahrc on May 27, 2009 10:12:47 GMT -5
Even though you know I disaggree with you Cepha, I have to say that anyone who goes by "Sola Scriptura" would have to agree with you. What is the "plain meaning" of the word "holy" in the Bible? You see, if there is a difficult verse in the Bible, we go to the Church(to whom God gave authority) to find out the meaning. Non-Catholics can only go to themselves, so they have to "trust in themselves with all their hearts, and lean on their own understanding"
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Post by watchman on May 27, 2009 10:14:13 GMT -5
There is definitely not 2 billion true believers in the world. There may be 2 billion confessing Christian, however the remnant would be a fragment of those, a small fragment indeed no more than maybe 20% How did you come to the number of 20%? What mathematical calculations with accordance to scripture did you use to arrive at this number? Or is this just a "guesstimate" on your half? Your own "personal" assumption? Here is an answer that will blow your mind. God told me. |
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Post by Cepha on May 27, 2009 10:15:16 GMT -5
Even though you know I disaggree with you Cepha, I have to say that anyone who goes by "Sola Scriptura" would have to agree with you. What is the "plain meaning" of the word "holy" in the Bible? You see, if there is a difficult verse in the Bible, we go to the Church(to whom God gave authority) to find out the meaning. Non-Catholics can only go to themselves, so they have to "trust in themselves with all their hearts, and lean on their own understanding" Simple question: Would a holy person (as the word holy means in the scriptures mentioned) be denied heaven? Yes, or no? (By the way, I went to The Church and even it says, in the CCC, that unbelievers are able to receive salvation if they live a righteous lives...my belief is covered on both ends! ;D ) |
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Post by watchman on May 27, 2009 10:16:09 GMT -5
That is exactly why you should trust in God and God alone. Not a man made religion. Good thing The Catholic Church was led by Saint Peter (who was a Priest and Jesus separates The Priesthood from ordinary man). ;D There is only one legitimate priest in the N.T. Church and that is Jesus Christ our high priest whos priesthood remains forever. |
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Post by watchman on May 27, 2009 10:19:09 GMT -5
Even though you know I disaggree with you Cepha, I have to say that anyone who goes by "Sola Scriptura" would have to agree with you. What is the "plain meaning" of the word "holy" in the Bible? You see, if there is a difficult verse in the Bible, we go to the Church(to whom God gave authority) to find out the meaning. Non-Catholics can only go to themselves, so they have to "trust in themselves with all their hearts, and lean on their own understanding" You see this is where you are wrong and shows that you do not understand sola scriptura. The Bible does not contradict itself therefore it is impossible for 1st Cor 7:14 to mean what cepha claims because it is contradictory to the rest of the Bible, and any sola scriptura believe would agree with me. |
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Post by Cepha on May 27, 2009 10:21:17 GMT -5
How did you come to the number of 20%? What mathematical calculations with accordance to scripture did you use to arrive at this number? Or is this just a "guesstimate" on your half? Your own "personal" assumption? Here is an answer that will blow your mind. God told me. Well, if you believe that it was God that told you that and you're sure that it wasn't Satan, then you should be able to explain to me (since you have divine infallible information here) the name of the church, or the location. Since God is not the author of confusion and Satan is the father of lies, let's see how you can prove what you believe God told you.  |
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Post by Cepha on May 27, 2009 10:22:06 GMT -5
Good thing The Catholic Church was led by Saint Peter (who was a Priest and Jesus separates The Priesthood from ordinary man). ;D There is only one legitimate priest in the N.T. Church and that is Jesus Christ our high priest whos priesthood remains forever. Really? So then Saint Paul is an illegitimate Priest? |
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Post by Cepha on May 27, 2009 10:25:02 GMT -5
Even though you know I disaggree with you Cepha, I have to say that anyone who goes by "Sola Scriptura" would have to agree with you. What is the "plain meaning" of the word "holy" in the Bible? You see, if there is a difficult verse in the Bible, we go to the Church(to whom God gave authority) to find out the meaning. Non-Catholics can only go to themselves, so they have to "trust in themselves with all their hearts, and lean on their own understanding" You see this is where you are wrong and shows that you do not understand sola scriptura. The Bible does not contradict itself therefore it is impossible for 1st Cor 7:14 to mean what cepha claims because it is contradictory to the rest of the Bible, and any sola scriptura believe would agree with me. Well, according to SS, SS is "wrong" since it's not to be found taught by Jesus Christ or anybody else in the Bible. And, one man's contradiction is merely his inability to reconcile the two scriptures for lack of understanding and guidance of the Holy Spirit. If The Holy Spirit wants you to read two scriptures that seemingly contradict each other, but in reality don't and to understand it, then you would (as I can). I can read 1 Corinthians 7:14 and easily accept (because this has been revealed to me) that the righteous unbelieving spouse of a saved spouse is thus made holy by the faith of the saved spouse. I have no problems with accepting that scripture as written. ;D |
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