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Post by Ramon on May 27, 2009 21:22:21 GMT -5
You probably think that there is no repetition of prayers in the Holy Bible. You wrong! You are wrong in your assumption, not only do I realize Paul prayed similar prayers, I too pray the same prayer often. You have obviously misunderstood my post. Any prayer is good, but repeating the same prayer over and over out of tradition and not from the heart does no good. So if I do repetitious of words (or prayers) out of the heart, it is o.k? Great! I thought you believe otherwise, forgive me. Also, we Orthodox say the Lord's Prayer in our Divine Liturgy. We say this prayer from the heart not because it just another "ritual". I too pray, like the 1st Century Church, the Lord's Prayer three times day (morning, mid-day, and night). In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by alfie on May 27, 2009 22:45:02 GMT -5
"Vain repetitions" are what Jesus condemned. (Note that he also condemned their "much speaking" in prayers) Catholics don't pray "vain repetitions". There is nothing vain about praying the Our Father, saying grace at every meal, or petitioning the Lord repeatedly. Remember the "persistent widow"? She kept saying the same thing to the unjust judge, "Give me justice....Give me justice....etc" Jesus didn't condemn her, but complimented her faith. Where does it say the widow kept saying the same thing to the unjust judge ? It only says she kept coming to the judge. |
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Post by alfie on May 27, 2009 23:25:29 GMT -5
No one has to do anything! Praying the rosary is a personal choice. During mass, there is not repeticious praying. We say the Our Father just like yall do. Do you think your church sounds like a "communitive grumbling of words" during service when you all say the Our Father? I can't see how saying the Rosary can't be vain and repetitious. A person can't be putting much thought into what they are saying when they are repeating the same sentences over and over again. After a few "hail Mary's" it's got to be boring. Just how long does the Rosary take anyway...a half hour? Most of the examples of prayer in the Bible aren't very long. In fact the longer the prayer the odds are it is being done merely for show as was pointed out in the New Testament when people were praying in the synagoges. And I am inclined to believe that a good many people in our churches today (who pray long prayers in public ) are only doing it to impress other people. Besides, most of he time, we are suppose to pray in private. I can't believe that God wouldn't be more pleased if a prayer was spontaneous rather then routine. Since prayer is how we communicate with God, would you want the same thing said over and over to you if you were God? Personally I wouldn't want the same prayer prayed to me because it's rather obvious that, the person doing the praying doesn't want to put much effort into the prayer. |
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Post by alfie on May 27, 2009 23:38:26 GMT -5
You are wrong in your assumption, not only do I realize Paul prayed similar prayers, I too pray the same prayer often. You have obviously misunderstood my post. Any prayer is good, but repeating the same prayer over and over out of tradition and not from the heart does no good. So if I do repetitious of words (or prayers) out of the heart, it is o.k? Great! I thought you believe otherwise, forgive me. Also, we Orthodox say the Lord's Prayer in our Divine Liturgy. We say this prayer from the heart not because it just another "ritual". I too pray, like the 1st Century Church, the Lord's Prayer three times day (morning, mid-day, and night). In IC.XC, Ramon Jesus was giving us an example of how we are to pray. It doesn't mean a person has to pray the "Lord's Prayer". Secondly, I think it was a way Jesus was getting us used to using the word "Father" in reference to God. In the Old Testament God was never refered to God as Father. |
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Post by teresahrc on May 28, 2009 8:15:35 GMT -5
No, you don't have to pray the Lord's prayer. If you think you can come up with a better prayer, go for it. By the way, how is the Rosary done "for show" when 99% of the time people pray it alone in their home? And how is meditating on the life of Jesus "vain"? You think that people shouldn't meditate on Jesus for more than a few minutes? Didn't St. Paul say through the Holy Spirit: "Pray without ceasing"? But you are saying we should only pray for a few minutes? At the very least, every Christian should pray the Lord's prayer once a day. " Give us this day our daily bread" Why are we not aloud to say a meaningful phrase repetitiously in prayer, while most Churches SING repetitiously meaningful phrases? What is the difference? Aren't most hymns and Christian songs really prayers? What about "praying scripture"? A very awesome thing to do. What if someone prayed: Psalm 136 1 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good.
His love endures forever.
2 Give thanks to the God of gods.
His love endures forever.
3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords:
His love endures forever.
4 to him who alone does great wonders,
His love endures forever.
5 who by his understanding made the heavens,
His love endures forever.
6 who spread out the earth upon the waters,
His love endures forever.
7 who made the great lights—
His love endures forever.
8 the sun to govern the day,
His love endures forever.
9 the moon and stars to govern the night;
His love endures forever.
10 to him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt
His love endures forever.
11 and brought Israel out from among them
His love endures forever.
12 with a mighty hand and outstretched arm;
His love endures forever.
13 to him who divided the Red Sea asunder
His love endures forever.
14 and brought Israel through the midst of it,
His love endures forever.
15 but swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea;
His love endures forever.
16 to him who led his people through the desert,
His love endures forever.
17 who struck down great kings,
His love endures forever.
18 and killed mighty kings—
His love endures forever.
19 Sihon king of the Amorites
His love endures forever.
20 and Og king of Bashan—
His love endures forever.
21 and gave their land as an inheritance,
His love endures forever.
22 an inheritance to his servant Israel;
His love endures forever.
23 to the One who remembered us in our low estate
His love endures forever.
24 and freed us from our enemies,
His love endures forever.
25 and who gives food to every creature.
His love endures forever.
26 Give thanks to the God of heaven.
His love endures forever.Please don't tell me Psalm 136 is a "vain" repetition. |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:15:50 GMT -5
Cepha- The communitive grumbling of words...I call that vain...has no meaning, they are just saying it because they "have to". So now you know the intent of those praying? Wow.  How do you know that we don't like to pray like that? How do you know that they say it just because they have to? Nobody forces anybody to pray in our church. In fact, nobody even has to be there. People who come there do it knowing full well what they are getting into. Thou assumeth too much. Perhaps, you shouldn't "assume" what is in another's heart when they worship.  |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:17:58 GMT -5
No one has to do anything! Praying the rosary is a personal choice. During mass, there is not repeticious praying. We say the Our Father just like yall do. Do you think your church sounds like a "communitive grumbling of words" during service when you all say the Our Father? For some people CC, if you're not jumping up and down screaming and yelling and doing flips in the aisle, it's not "true" spirit filled holy ghost worship. They don't understand the reverance of Christian worship...only their own "regional" manner of worship is considered valid. Christian exclusionism. |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:21:16 GMT -5
I almost tear up when I say the Our Father during mass. Its beautiful. When it's done in my Church, they "sing" it. Me, I silently "say" it to myself, taking my time with each line. I reflect on each line and what it's saying. It's just like Jesus said, don't stand up and pray out loud like the hypocrites do so that everybody can see you. He was talking exactly about people who use public worship as some sort of "proof" of their Christianess. I'm so glad I'm a Catholic. We're one of the very few Christian religions that doesn't look down or try to judge how others worship. Even Jesus in Mark said that we aren't to judge how others worship. I agree with him wholeheartedly. I might not be a radical jumping up and down praying out loud kind of guy, but that's ok...neither was Jesus.  |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:28:06 GMT -5
#1 Jesus is the one and only Priest Is that a scriptural belief? Or your own belief you made up? Because it was God who established The Priesthood. Jesus was born into it through Mary (Joaquim was also a Priest, her father). No, you were the one who called yourself a Priest. I never called myself a Priest. You must have me confused with someone else. Well, that's because your bible was more likely than not translated after the 16th Century. And...a minister "is" a Priest. priest –noun 1. a person whose office it is to perform religious rites, and esp. to make sacrificial offerings. 2. (in Christian use) a. a person ordained to the sacerdotal or pastoral office; a member of the clergy; minister. b. (in hierarchical churches) a member of the clergy of the order next below that of bishop, authorized to carry out the Christian ministry. 3. a minister of any religion. But you'll probably deny the definition of Priest just to justify not believing what scripture says (while the whole time believing that The Bible is valid of belief, even though "IT" is never ever mentioned in The Bible). Am I right? ;D |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:31:33 GMT -5
The Church is the Body of Christ. No where in the Bible does it say the Church is "a go between", and I didn't say that either. Actually you did say it. Yes, and the only authorized interpreter is the Holy Spirit, through the Church. You said the Holy Spirit interprets scripture through the Church. That sounds like a go between to me. Here's another "go between" for you that Jesus nor scripture ever dissolved: Luke 10:16 "The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me." Besides, it pleases God when we intercede (go between) on each other's behalfs... 1 Timothy 2 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; If "going between" pleases God, why are you displeased with what pleases God?  |
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Post by emily445455 on May 28, 2009 10:31:41 GMT -5
I do not doubt that when some pray the Lords Prayer or any other repeatative prayers that they are saying it out of the depths of their hearts. But others, i can assure you, do not.
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:32:31 GMT -5
LOL! Maybe not in Elizabethan English! Who "offers up" things in the Bible? Priests. Oh yeah, I forgot, some people actually believe Jesus literally said "thee" and "thou" and that's the real language of Holy Scripture!  |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:37:06 GMT -5
Actually I do need the Church. Ok. Assembled together for what if not to be taught? Matthew 2819Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.Gosh I lovvvvve being Catholic! ;D 20Teaching them...
20Teaching them...
20Teaching them...
20Teaching them...
Yes Jesus! Whatever you say! I accept!
Amen!
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 28, 2009 10:37:22 GMT -5
No one has to do anything! Praying the rosary is a personal choice. During mass, there is not repeticious praying. We say the Our Father just like yall do. Do you think your church sounds like a "communitive grumbling of words" during service when you all say the Our Father? I can't see how saying the Rosary can't be vain and repetitious. A person can't be putting much thought into what they are saying when they are repeating the same sentences over and over again. After a few "hail Mary's" it's got to be boring. Just how long does the Rosary take anyway...a half hour? Most of the examples of prayer in the Bible aren't very long. In fact the longer the prayer the odds are it is being done merely for show as was pointed out in the New Testament when people were praying in the synagoges. And I am inclined to believe that a good many people in our churches today (who pray long prayers in public ) are only doing it to impress other people. Besides, most of he time, we are suppose to pray in private. I can't believe that God wouldn't be more pleased if a prayer was spontaneous rather then routine. Since prayer is how we communicate with God, would you want the same thing said over and over to you if you were God? Personally I wouldn't want the same prayer prayed to me because it's rather obvious that, the person doing the praying doesn't want to put much effort into the prayer. Do you think we dont pray spontaniously too? We Catholics talk to God everyday...at least I do. Im always asking him for forgiveness for the wrong things i say and do during the day. My son loves to say the Our Father before bedtime. I believe Jesus approves. |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:38:19 GMT -5
(By the way, notice that the "Our Father" is meant to be prayed with more than one person, otherwise, it would say "My Father" Amazing catch there T! Wow! ;D |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 28, 2009 10:39:40 GMT -5
I almost tear up when I say the Our Father during mass. Its beautiful. When it's done in my Church, they "sing" it. Me, I silently "say" it to myself, taking my time with each line. I reflect on each line and what it's saying. It's just like Jesus said, don't stand up and pray out loud like the hypocrites do so that everybody can see you. He was talking exactly about people who use public worship as some sort of "proof" of their Christianess. I'm so glad I'm a Catholic. We're one of the very few Christian religions that doesn't look down or try to judge how others worship. Even Jesus in Mark said that we aren't to judge how others worship. I agree with him wholeheartedly. I might not be a radical jumping up and down praying out loud kind of guy, but that's ok...neither was Jesus. My church sings it as well, but slowly...Love it! You can feel the love:) |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:42:48 GMT -5
Exactly, Jesus said that is HOW we should pray, not what we should pray. Ok, exactly "how" did Jesus pray that prayer then? Explain to us how he did it so that we could get it right. Here's what Jesus said...
Luke 11 1And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. That to me looks like Jesus telling them "what" to pray (not just how). Look at how the question was asked...Lord, teach us "to" pray. |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:44:07 GMT -5
Why can't we say it word-for-word? Do you think that you can come up with a better prayer than Jesus? How is saying the same prayer Jesus gave as an example "meaningless"? What in the world?! Sure, you can make up your own prayers (extemporaneous) Catholics do that as well. But why say the Lord's prayer is meaningless? I thought that exact same thing! I guess it's "Sola Scriptura" EXCEPT when it comes to "what" Jesus told us to pray? Or when we disagree with Jesus? |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:45:36 GMT -5
Good point emily. The ''Lords prayer'' is an outline not word for word instruction that we are supposed to meaninglessly repeat. How is the Lord's Prayer meaninglessly? Why can't we pray the Lord's Prayer, even though that was the practice in the 1st Century Church, as evident in the Didache? You probably think that there is no repetition of prayers in the Holy Bible. You wrong! Read Matt. 26:44. Jesus prayed a third time in the garden of Gethsemane, saying the exact same words again. It is not the repetition that is the issue. It's the vanity. God looks into our heart, not solely at our words. If our intention is good, he has no issue with our prayers. In Rom. 1:9, Saint Paul says that he always mentions the Romans in his prayers without ceasing. In Rev. 4:8, the angels pray day and night without cessation the same words "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty." This is repetitious prayer that is pleasing to God. In Psalm 136, the phrase "For His steadfast love endures forever" is more repetitious than saying the Lord's Prayer a few times a day. In fact, if you read the Book of Psalms, you will see repetitious in a few places. In Psalms 103, the phrase "Bless the Lord my Soul" is repeated several times. In Dan. 3:35-66, the phrase "Bless the Lord" is similarly offered repeatedly. For repetitious prayers in the Holy Bible, read Isaiah 6:3, Luke 6:12, Acts 12:5, 1 Thessalonians 3:10, Psalms 136 , Psalms 150. Did not Saint Paul tell us to "pray without ceasing" (1 Tim 5:17)? How could one pray without ceasing and not repeat the same words or phrase? Did He not tell us to give thanks always? I bet you can't go 1 week without repeating words or phrases in your prayers to God! You are bound to repeat words or phrases! Scriptures are not against repetitious of words in prayers only "vain" (pagan) repetitious. If you don't know that, you haven't study Scriptures....period! In IC.XC, Ramon Not only that, again, Jesus prayed repetative prayers as a Jew over and over and over. What He told us to do was to not say "vain" prayers (without intent). No where in The Bible does it say "do not pray repetitiously". No where. |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:47:42 GMT -5
Why can't we say it word-for-word? Do you think that you can come up with a better prayer than Jesus? How is saying the same prayer Jesus gave as an example "meaningless"? What in the world?! Sure, you can make up your own prayers (extemporaneous) Catholics do that as well. But why say the Lord's prayer is meaningless? You can say it word for word, but that is not what Jesus was telling us to do. He was giving us a model for proper prayer. No, His exact words were: "When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven..."When ye pray... say say say Pretty clear to me that He meant that we were to "say" what He "said" after that. But hey, you don't have to if you don't want to. I for one, will. And do. ;D |
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