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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:48:39 GMT -5
. Any prayer is good, but repeating the same prayer over and over out of tradition and not from the heart does no good. No Catholic would argue that point with you. |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:49:51 GMT -5
So if I do repetitious of words (or prayers) out of the heart, it is o.k? Great! In IC.XC, Ramon  LOL! |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:51:05 GMT -5
"Vain repetitions" are what Jesus condemned. (Note that he also condemned their "much speaking" in prayers) Catholics don't pray "vain repetitions". There is nothing vain about praying the Our Father, saying grace at every meal, or petitioning the Lord repeatedly. Remember the "persistent widow"? She kept saying the same thing to the unjust judge, "Give me justice....Give me justice....etc" Jesus didn't condemn her, but complimented her faith. Where does it say the widow kept saying the same thing to the unjust judge ? It only says she kept coming to the judge. Matt. 6:7 - Jesus teaches, "do not heap up empty phrases" in prayer. Protestants use this verse to criticize various Catholic forms of prayer which repeat phrases, such as litanies and the Rosary. But Jesus' focus in this instruction is on the "vain," and not on the "repetition." Matt. 26:44 - for example, Jesus prayed a third time in the garden of Gethsemane, saying the exact same words again. It is not the repetition that is the issue. It's the vanity. God looks into our heart, not solely at our words. Luke 18:13 - the tax collector kept beating his breast and praying "God be merciful to me, a sinner." This repetitive prayer was pleasing to God because it was offered with a sincere and repentant heart. Acts 10:2,4 - Cornelius prayed constantly to the Lord and his prayers ascended as a memorial before God. Rom. 1:9 - Paul says that he always mentions the Romans in his prayers without ceasing. Rom. 12:12 - Paul commands us to be constant in prayer. God looks at what is in our heart, not necessarily how we choose our words. 1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul commands us to pray constantly. Good repetition is different than vain repetition. Rev. 4:8 - the angels pray day and night without cessation the same words "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty." This is repetitious prayer that is pleasing to God. Psalm 136 - in this Psalm, the phrase "For His steadfast love endures forever" is more repetitious than any Catholic prayer, and it is God's divine Word. Dan. 3:35-66 - the phrase "Bless the Lord" is similarly offered repeatedly, and mirrors Catholic litanies. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 28, 2009 10:53:58 GMT -5
Matt 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: [...]
We should pray using the Lord's Prayer as a guide or a pattern for prayer. Not word for word.
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:54:34 GMT -5
No one has to do anything! Praying the rosary is a personal choice. During mass, there is not repeticious praying. We say the Our Father just like yall do. Do you think your church sounds like a "communitive grumbling of words" during service when you all say the Our Father? I can't see how saying the Rosary can't be vain and repetitious. A person can't be putting much thought into what they are saying when they are repeating the same sentences over and over again. After a few "hail Mary's" it's got to be boring. Just how long does the Rosary take anyway...a half hour? Most of the examples of prayer in the Bible aren't very long. In fact the longer the prayer the odds are it is being done merely for show as was pointed out in the New Testament when people were praying in the synagoges. And I am inclined to believe that a good many people in our churches today (who pray long prayers in public ) are only doing it to impress other people. Besides, most of he time, we are suppose to pray in private. I can't believe that God wouldn't be more pleased if a prayer was spontaneous rather then routine. Since prayer is how we communicate with God, would you want the same thing said over and over to you if you were God? Personally I wouldn't want the same prayer prayed to me because it's rather obvious that, the person doing the praying doesn't want to put much effort into the prayer. I could understand how you'd feel that way. But the Rosary is a "meditative" prayer. There are several types of prayer. Worship, Meditative, Supplicative and Praise. It's what Jews (and Jesus Himself) did. They would pray the same words over and over and over to bring themselves into a state of consciousness that cleared their minds of all worldly things and help them commune with God. It's really a beautiful thing. Again, I understand how you couldn't see it that way, but Protestants do the exact same thing when they yell "halleluyah" over and over and over again while in a deep spiritual mode. And I actually love to see when they do that. To me, it's beautiful...repetative, but not vain.  |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 10:59:45 GMT -5
I can't see how saying the Rosary can't be vain and repetitious. A person can't be putting much thought into what they are saying when they are repeating the same sentences over and over again. After a few "hail Mary's" it's got to be boring. Just how long does the Rosary take anyway...a half hour? Most of the examples of prayer in the Bible aren't very long. In fact the longer the prayer the odds are it is being done merely for show as was pointed out in the New Testament when people were praying in the synagoges. And I am inclined to believe that a good many people in our churches today (who pray long prayers in public ) are only doing it to impress other people. Besides, most of he time, we are suppose to pray in private. I can't believe that God wouldn't be more pleased if a prayer was spontaneous rather then routine. Since prayer is how we communicate with God, would you want the same thing said over and over to you if you were God? Personally I wouldn't want the same prayer prayed to me because it's rather obvious that, the person doing the praying doesn't want to put much effort into the prayer. Do you think we dont pray spontaniously too? We Catholics talk to God everyday...at least I do. Im always asking him for forgiveness for the wrong things i say and do during the day. My son loves to say the Our Father before bedtime. I believe Jesus approves. Hey CC! Remember when I got my thread "Do Protestants ejaculate when they pray?" deleted over there at CAF? LOL! And then I put posts about Nuns ejaculating when they pray? LOL! That was soooo funny! LOL! Hey, Alfie, Em, Watchman! Catholics ejaculate all the time when we pray! Do you guys? LMCBO!  |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 11:03:01 GMT -5
Matt 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: [...] We should pray using the Lord's Prayer as a guide or a pattern for prayer. Not word for word. No, He literally said: Luke 11:2And He said to them, "When you pray, say: 'Father, hallowed be Your name...'"You cannot deny anything Jesus says. You have to use both mentions of the Our Father. And in Luke, Jesus literally said what we are to " say". |
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Post by emily445455 on May 28, 2009 11:05:42 GMT -5
Not in Matt 6 And if Matt 6 says "after this manner", and God also doesn't want us to pray vain repetitions....well, I haven't prayed the Lord's Prayer in about two years, even when Jeremy and I attend a church that does say it. Pentecostals do I think, Cepha...our church doesn't. |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 11:13:11 GMT -5
Not in Matt 6 And if Matt 6 says "after this manner", and God also doesn't want us to pray vain repetitions....well, I haven't prayed the Lord's Prayer in about two years, even when Jeremy and I attend a church that does say it. Pentecostals do I think, Cepha...our church doesn't. Hey, I'm a "to each his/her own" type of guy when it comes to worship. If you guys don't want to do it in your church, in my opinion, that's perfectly fine. That's between you and Jesus. And in fact, Jesus literally said pray it in your room (not neccessarily "in" church) if we all want to be accurate about it. So you're not "wrong" to not pray it in your church. |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 11:15:12 GMT -5
Matt 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: [...] We should pray using the Lord's Prayer as a guide or a pattern for prayer. Not word for word. In Luke 11, Jesus said "say" literally, so your interpretation of Matthew is incorrect. Both say the same thing even if you interpret them differently. Jesus doesn't contradict Himself...only our limits of understanding make us contradict what He says. And in Luke, He said " say" (not " use this as a guide or pattern for prayer", but literally " say"). |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 11:16:15 GMT -5
When two scritpures seem to contradict each other, you are to yield to the scripture that can be accepted in both instances and ignore your own personal interpretation of it, using the one that can be said for both. |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 11:18:37 GMT -5
My church sings it as well, but slowly...Love it! You can feel the love:) I couldn't sing to save my life! LOL! One thing I have to give Protestants though, they have the most vocal churchgoers. I think that's cool. I admire how they worship. Even if it's different than traditional Christian worship, I still appreciate how they worship and in my eyes, it's not wrong. Praising and worshipping God can never be wrong when done from the heart. |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 11:25:44 GMT -5
Traditional "repetitious" prayer in scripture:
Psalm 136
1 Oh give thanks unto Jehovah; for he is good; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever.
2 Oh give thanks unto the God of gods; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever.
3 Oh give thanks unto the Lord of lords; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever:
4 To him who alone doeth great wonders; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever:
5 To him that by understanding made the heavens; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever:
6 To him that spread forth the earth above the waters; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever:
7 To him that made great lights; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever:
8 The sun to rule by day; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever;
9 The moon and stars to rule by night; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever:
10 To him that smote Egypt in their first-born; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever;
11 And brought out Israel from among them; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever;
12 With a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever:
13 To him that divided the Red Sea in sunder; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever;
14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever;
15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red Sea; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever:
16 To him that led his people through the wilderness; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever:
17 To him that smote great kings; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever;
18 And slew famous kings; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever:
19 Sihon king of the Amorites; For his lovingkindness endureth forever;
20 And Og king of Bashan; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever;
21 And gave their land for a heritage; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever;
22 Even a heritage unto Israel his servant; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever:
23 Who remembered us in our low estate; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever;
24 And hath delivered us from our adversaries; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever:
25 Who giveth food to all flesh; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever.
26 Oh give thanks unto the God of heaven; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever.
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 11:27:18 GMT -5
No, you don't have to pray the Lord's prayer. If you think you can come up with a better prayer, go for it. By the way, how is the Rosary done "for show" when 99% of the time people pray it alone in their home? And how is meditating on the life of Jesus "vain"? You think that people shouldn't meditate on Jesus for more than a few minutes? Didn't St. Paul say through the Holy Spirit: "Pray without ceasing"? But you are saying we should only pray for a few minutes? At the very least, every Christian should pray the Lord's prayer once a day. " Give us this day our daily bread" Why are we not aloud to say a meaningful phrase repetitiously in prayer, while most Churches SING repetitiously meaningful phrases? What is the difference? Aren't most hymns and Christian songs really prayers? What about "praying scripture"? A very awesome thing to do. What if someone prayed: Psalm 136 1 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good.
His love endures forever.
2 Give thanks to the God of gods.
His love endures forever.
3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords:
His love endures forever.
4 to him who alone does great wonders,
His love endures forever.
5 who by his understanding made the heavens,
His love endures forever.
6 who spread out the earth upon the waters,
His love endures forever.
7 who made the great lights—
His love endures forever.
8 the sun to govern the day,
His love endures forever.
9 the moon and stars to govern the night;
His love endures forever.
10 to him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt
His love endures forever.
11 and brought Israel out from among them
His love endures forever.
12 with a mighty hand and outstretched arm;
His love endures forever.
13 to him who divided the Red Sea asunder
His love endures forever.
14 and brought Israel through the midst of it,
His love endures forever.
15 but swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea;
His love endures forever.
16 to him who led his people through the desert,
His love endures forever.
17 who struck down great kings,
His love endures forever.
18 and killed mighty kings—
His love endures forever.
19 Sihon king of the Amorites
His love endures forever.
20 and Og king of Bashan—
His love endures forever.
21 and gave their land as an inheritance,
His love endures forever.
22 an inheritance to his servant Israel;
His love endures forever.
23 to the One who remembered us in our low estate
His love endures forever.
24 and freed us from our enemies,
His love endures forever.
25 and who gives food to every creature.
His love endures forever.
26 Give thanks to the God of heaven.
His love endures forever.Please don't tell me Psalm 136 is a "vain" repetition. Rats Teresa! You beat me to it! LOL! We might as well not even post at the same time! We have "repetitious" posts! LOL! |
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Post by watchman on May 28, 2009 12:30:54 GMT -5
#1 Jesus is the one and only Priest Is that a scriptural belief? Or your own belief you made up? Because it was God who established The Priesthood. Jesus was born into it through Mary (Joaquim was also a Priest, her father). It is a biblical belief. The O.T. priesthood was done way with along with the old covenant. Jesus is a priest forever after the similitude of Melchisedec, The priesthood of Christ had nothing to do with being born of Mary. the fact that you thought His priesthood came from Mary shows how little you really know. |
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Post by watchman on May 28, 2009 12:34:07 GMT -5
Gosh I lovvvvve being Catholic! And I love being a non catholic true follower of Jesus Christ, the true God. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 28, 2009 12:57:14 GMT -5
same here watchman...but there are true followers of Jesus Christ and God within the Catholic Church.
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 13:05:37 GMT -5
Scripture please? Scripture please? Hello? Melchizedek is a Priest "of" The Old Covenant. How do you separate the two? Also, you do know that The Catholic Mass is according to the order of Melchizedek, right? ;D Really? Let's begin with the "lesson" then! First, let's establish Jesus' physical lineage! You do know that Mary's father was a Priest, right? (Just wait until you see what order Priest he was!) ;D |
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Post by Ramon on May 28, 2009 13:05:54 GMT -5
Jesus was giving us an example of how we are to pray. It doesn't mean a person has to pray the "Lord's Prayer". Well, saying the Lord's Prayer was the practice of the 1st Century Church (as evident in the Didache), and there nothing in Scriptures that states one should not pray the Lord's Prayer word from word as Christ instructed his disciples. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Cepha on May 28, 2009 13:10:19 GMT -5
Gosh I lovvvvve being Catholic! And I love being a non catholic true follower of Jesus Christ, the true God. So, if you're a non-universal Christian, what denomination do you belong to? I thought you said you're not a denominational Christian, right?  |
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