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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2009 12:02:24 GMT -5
Or to make it not happen........
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Post by Ramon on May 4, 2009 12:04:39 GMT -5
But as of right now, I believe infants are sinless based on what others have told me from their studies  I rather believe Scriptures emily, not what others said that contradicts Scriptures and what the Church taught since the first century. You have just admit that you do follow Scriptures but what others told you through there studies  Ramon, I have a lot more studying to do of the Scriptures. We are all have more studying to do of the Holy Scriptures, it's a lifelong process In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2009 12:06:52 GMT -5
Until I study it...yes, I will believe what other Bible-believing Christians whom I trust say. On a temporary basis.
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Post by Ramon on May 4, 2009 12:08:44 GMT -5
Until I study it...yes, I will believe what other Bible-believing Christians whom I trust say. On a temporary basis. I will suggest you start studying the Scriptures I gave, then you will see how your "Bible-Believing Christians" whom you trust are lieing to you or perhaps they do not know any better (perhaps they do too has been misguided in there studies). In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by watchman on May 4, 2009 12:10:47 GMT -5
No I do not admit that. Baptism without repentance in useless, and meaningless. What mortal sins would babies have to repent of? Can a sinless person be baptized without having to repent? Or is sin a requirement of being baptized? Well, we're not talking about pointless things, but the mandatory things like baptism (which is what Jesus commanded, right)? Nobody pointed out that computers are mandatory in going online. Or how one has to change their oil in a car every 3,000 miles. We're talking about something that is actually "in" The Bible that Jesus commanded. Unless you are born again of water and spirit, you will not go to heaven. It's it and that's that. The problem here is you seem to be arguing the need for baptism, when I agree we need to be baptized. My point is baptizing people that are not aware of what or why they are being baptized is religious ritual and nothing more. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2009 12:11:09 GMT -5
No offence, but I'll study it on my own or with my Discipler or pastor or something |
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Post by watchman on May 4, 2009 12:15:30 GMT -5
Seems that 1 Cor is saying that children are made holy thru their parents actions. I don't have any Scriptures that I know of that say infants are sinless. Just something I know from being around them. Spend a week with my 2 year old and you might change your mind lol.....however I agree. One must be mentally able to know who Jesus is and why they need salvation to make a choice to repent before they can be judged. Further more I agree baptism before repentance is useless. |
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Post by Ramon on May 4, 2009 12:19:54 GMT -5
The problem here is you seem to be arguing the need for baptism, when I agree we need to be baptized. My point is baptizing people that are not aware of what or why they are being baptized is religious ritual and nothing more. The problem here is that you believe one has to believe and be aware of what Holy Baptism is before it can be administered unto them, which is non-Scriptural. Following the Tradition of the Apostles and Fathers, and the authority of Scriptures (John 3:3,5, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5-6, 1 Cor. 6:11, Gal. 3:27, 1 Peter 3:2, Roman 6, etc), the Church since the beginning has always linked Regeneration (or rebirth) with Holy Baptism. It is through the Baptismal Font, with the power of the Holy Spirit, that we are reborn unto spiritual life, our sins are washed away, and we become fully in communion with Christ and His Holy Church. Infants are given Holy Baptism for these same reasons, so they too may be one with Christ and the Church. In the Old Testament, God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children (Joshua 5:2-7). This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation. They would circumcised there Infants in order for them to enter into the Old Covenant (Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3) without there knowledge or awareness. However, in Col 2:11-12, Holy Baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, Holy Baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant (He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults). In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by watchman on May 4, 2009 12:21:30 GMT -5
Parents baptiseing their infants, its the parents job to make this happen~ My 12 year old son became a Christian when he was 4 by accepting Jesus as his Savior, but he was not baptized until he was 7 right after my conversion. As for my 2 year old he will be baptized as soon as he decides that he wants to accept Jesus as his own personal Savior. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 4, 2009 12:25:16 GMT -5
Wow 4 yrs old? Praise God.
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Post by watchman on May 4, 2009 12:27:36 GMT -5
The problem here is you seem to be arguing the need for baptism, when I agree we need to be baptized. My point is baptizing people that are not aware of what or why they are being baptized is religious ritual and nothing more. The problem here is that you believe one has to believe and be aware of what Holy Baptism is before it can be administered unto them, which is non-Scriptural. Following the Tradition of the Apostles and Fathers, and the authority of Scriptures (John 3:3,5, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5-6, 1 Cor. 6:11, Gal. 3:27, 1 Peter 3:2, Roman 6, etc), the Church since the beginning has always linked Regeneration (or rebirth) with Holy Baptism. It is through the Baptismal Font, with the power of the Holy Spirit, that we are reborn unto spiritual life, our sins are washed away, and we become fully in communion with Christ and His Holy Church. Infants are given Holy Baptism for these same reasons, so they too may be one with Christ and the Church. In the Old Testament, God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children (Joshua 5:2-7). This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation. They would circumcised there Infants in order for them to enter into the Old Covenant (Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3) without there knowledge or awareness. However, in Col 2:11-12, Holy Baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, Holy Baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant (He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults). In IC.XC, Ramon The problem is none of those scripture say that those who do not believe should be baptized. The scripture actually tell us the prerequisite for baptism is always to believe or the repent peters says Repent and then be baptized, and Philip tell the eunuch to be baptized he must first believe. That is what scripture teaches not6 what you are pushing. |
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Post by watchman on May 4, 2009 12:29:42 GMT -5
Wow 4 yrs old? Praise God. Yes and at the time me and his mom were broke us (which we still are both married to other people) and neither of us were saved. God just started tugging on his heart and he did not resist. ;D |
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Post by watchman on May 4, 2009 12:34:36 GMT -5
Here are a couple of questions to those that believe that baptizing babies is not useless.
#1 Will babies that do not get baptized go to Hell if they die before their time of accountability?
#2 Will babies that are baptized go to Heaven if after they have the knowledge they need to repent, refuse to accept Jesus as their Savior but reject the faith?
If the answer to these question are no ( which I would assume qwe are agree they are) then that is proof that infant baptism is useless.
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Post by Ramon on May 4, 2009 12:36:21 GMT -5
The scripture actually tell us the prerequisite for baptism is always to believe or the repent peters says Repent and then be baptized, and Philip tell the eunuch to be baptized he must first believe. That is what scripture teaches not6 what you are pushing. No it doesn't watchman. The Scriptures doesn't tell us that all must believe in order to enter into the Baptismal Font. What it does give us are examples of adults, who obviously needed to make a profession of faith, before they enter into the Baptismal Font. You have a problem with Col 2:11-12 and other Scriptures not me. Holy Baptism is the "new circumcision". Holy Baptism should not be denied to Infants, for they to must enter into communion with Christ and the Church. They do this through there parents confession, just as in Israel, the Jewish parents play a critical role in their child's salvation. They would circumcised there Infants in order for them to enter into the Old Covenant (Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3) without there knowledge or awareness. This is what Scripture teaches, not what you and others are preaching. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 4, 2009 12:36:33 GMT -5
Im sorry but a 4 year old does not know what they believe....they cant even really read, much less really know what they believe. Not being rude, but heck, i did not know or really care when i was 4. It took me till i was well into my adulthood...24 till i knew what I believed.
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Post by watchman on May 4, 2009 12:39:30 GMT -5
Im sorry but a 4 year old does not know what they believe....they cant even really read, much less really know what they believe. Not being rude, but heck, i did not know or really care when i was 4. It took me till i was well into my adulthood...24 till i knew what I believed. Sorry it took you to 24 , but every person is different, and believe me my son made a comentment to serve God at 4 and is still to this day serving him the very best he can. His conversion even at 4 was real. |
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Post by Ramon on May 4, 2009 12:42:11 GMT -5
Here are a couple of questions to those that believe that baptizing babies is not useless. #1 Will babies that do not get baptized go to Hell if they die before their time of accountability? #2 Will babies that are baptized go to Heaven if after they have the knowledge they need to repent, refuse to accept Jesus as their Savior but reject the faith? 1) I also said before that while we are bound to God's Sacraments (or Holy Mysteries), God is not bound to His Sacraments and can saved whomever He wills, whether infants or adults. This doesn't negate, however, the Historical and Biblical doctrine of Holy Baptism, which regard it as a regeneration (or rebirth) and as in means of entrance into the Church. Also, Scriptures doesn't teach "age of accountability". 2) Anyone can reject Christ, even after being saved. If they grow up and decide to reject Christ and the Apostolic Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, then that is there decision. This doesn't mean that when Infants they were not given Holy Baptism with all it's effects. It means that as they grew older they decided to forfeit what they receive in the Baptismal Font. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by watchman on May 4, 2009 12:43:43 GMT -5
The scripture actually tell us the prerequisite for baptism is always to believe or the repent peters says Repent and then be baptized, and Philip tell the eunuch to be baptized he must first believe. That is what scripture teaches not6 what you are pushing. No it doesn't watchman. The Scriptures doesn't tell us that all must believe in order to enter into the Baptismal Font. Actually it does. Acts 8
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Philip clearly tells the Eunuch that he must believe before he could be baptized. |
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Post by Ramon on May 4, 2009 12:47:21 GMT -5
No it doesn't watchman. The Scriptures doesn't tell us that all must believe in order to enter into the Baptismal Font. Actually it does. Acts 8
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Philip clearly tells the Eunuch that he must believe before he could be baptized. What did I said before? "What it does give us are examples of adults, who obviously needed to make a profession of faith, before they enter into the Baptismal Font." Parents of Infants, like in the Old Testament, make this confession on behalf of there child or children. The Jewish parents play a critical role in their child's salvation. Likewise, the Christian parents (or Godparents) play a critical role in their child's salvation. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by watchman on May 4, 2009 12:52:51 GMT -5
Also, Scriptures doesn't teach "age of accountability". Never mentioned any age, however we must have the mental capability to know right for wrong, to understand are need for a Savior, and realize this Savior is Christ. Before God as a just righteous and Holy Judge can judge us. Now those of us that have reached this mental state whatever age that may be (ages very, there is no set age) can at that point decide not to believe it or refuse to repent then we are guilty and rightfully so. However if we do not reach this mental state because we are too young or mentally impaired ect... then it would not be just to judge us, and we know God is just. |
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